With regard to this, here’s what Adrian Belew has to say:
I told dweezil I would try my best to insure he would not see andre. but I put it off and put it off and I want to make this clear: I did not say anything to andre. andre had no idea that he should keep out of dweezil’s sight.
why did I not keep my word to dweezil? andre is a valued member of my crew and a friend. I know how much he loves frank’s music. I could not bring myself to hurt andre’s feeling.
Be sure to read the whole post. Thanks to Joe Crawford for the head’s up.
Poor Adrian, Dweezil should never have asked him to do his bullshit dirty work for him.
Adrian is good guy who seems, by his list of collaborations to be able to get on with people and not need to get petty. Even after his troble with Tina and Chris in the Tom Tom Club, the problems became water under the bridge.
Dweezil needs to stop being a spoiled brat.
Toxic tiffiness.
Ok, so please someone help me here and make sure I understand:
Adrian doesn’t tell Andre’ that DZ/ZPZ inc. doesn’t want him on the scene because he (Adrian) “didn’t want to hurt Andre’s feelings.”
Then things get “ugly” meaning Andre’ is almost shoved off stage by a ZPZ employee.
THEN (after all that happened) Adrian Belew STILL went on stage with ZPZ armed with his “harmonica and pitiful Dylan voice” AFTER Andre’ was almost pushed off stage and “banished from watching the show.”
Wow, what a guy! A real mensch that Adrian! Double plus good that Adrian “suddenly felt transported back to my time onstage with Frank.”
well, I guess that makes it all worth it now doesn’t it?
(what the fuck is wrong with people?)
I agree, Adrien’s playing the fence…
Now that you got me thinking, he does come off as a timid guy who doesnt want to step on ANYONE’S toes and even though he produces situations whereby everyone should be pissed off, he seems like the type of guy who is so passive that no one calls him on it.
Or else, neither party can afford to alienate prominent and participating Zappa alumni…
Oh well, at least Adrien apologized to everyone, which is more than the ZFT ever did.
Off-topic … & more than a little eerie:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27704012/wid=18298287
… paging Quentin Robert DeNameland, your services are urgently needed on Earth. Immediately.
We seem to have this rather serious, er, brown-cloud problem … any suggestions?
The funny thing is that one post earlier Adrian writes about some problems in the King Crimon camp that revolve around him too.
What the fuck IS wrong with people? Can’t Dweezil (and the ZFT) just learn to live and let live? Such immaturity. Such pettiness. The entire rude business is quite unbecoming anyone named Zappa (or a Zappa alumni for that matter). In my universe, no Zappa fan is ever persona non grata. Get it, Dweezil? get it…?
I don’t know…I’m not really sure that Adrian’s at fault here. It’s possible that he just didn’t want to further the animosity by telling Dweezil to fuck off.
It’s easy for us to sit back and judge and say, “well, if I were in that position, I would’ve told so-and-so to blah blah blah,” etc. The fact of the matter is that Adrian was placed in an awkward situation and made the best possible decision at the time.
Once upon a time about 10 years ago, someone at the ZFT left the Synclavier on all day without turning on the air condition in the room, the Synclavier overheated and got fried to the tune of $4,000 in repairs. Tsk, tsk.
[quote comment=”2971″]Once upon a time about 10 years ago, someone at the ZFT left the Synclavier on all day without turning on the air condition in the room, the Synclavier overheated and got fried to the tune of $4,000 in repairs. Tsk, tsk.[/quote]
And, that ‘someone’ was…………………………
Jean Kirkpatrick!!!
(fill in the blank)
Jane – Are you SERIOUS about that?
well i went on stage and they said they didn t want me there. you know the old dweezil freak
he was there with his big momma trying to file his guitar pick. i slipped over one of his cords and he said dang you son of cable maker get of my stage . he then called one of them stage masters and they told me not to watch the show. how ever adrian made sure he taped the show for me so i can see what a real professional band an band leader do . you know mom and dad had a lot a challenges and that effected me a lot when i was younger looks like all of that is my own doing since i haven t changed my behavior. I promise that i seek help so i can advance to the next level and be able to unwrap and egg sandwich ………..
actually i should realize that zappa produced an incredible son with incredible talent and i just don t have that, so i have to constantly spread shit about the Dweezil and the ZFT to fill in my needs ………..and cause problems drawing in more and more professional folks and waist there time ……….
[quote comment=”2975″]well i went on stage[/quote]
Next time you try to pull off an impression of Andre Cholmondeley and fail miserably at it, please sign with a username that indicates you are in fact, not the “real” Andre. Thanks!
“Andre” says:
[quote comment=”2975″]well i went on stage and they said they didn t want me there. you know the old dweezil freak
he was there with his big momma trying to file his guitar pick. i slipped over one of his cords and he said dang you son of cable maker get of my stage . he then called one of them stage masters and they told me not to watch the show. how ever adrian made sure he taped the show for me so i can see what a real professional band an band leader do . you know mom and dad had a lot a challenges and that effected me a lot when i was younger looks like all of that is my own doing since i haven t changed my behavior. I promise that i seek help so i can advance to the next level and be able to unwrap and egg sandwich ………..
actually i should realize that zappa produced an incredible son with incredible talent and i just don t have that, so i have to constantly spread shit about the Dweezil and the ZFT to fill in my needs ………..and cause problems drawing in more and more professional folks and waist there time ……….[/quote]
Dweezil, is that you?
[quote comment=”2973″]Jane – Are you SERIOUS about that?[/quote]
The Synclavier technician in Los Angeles, (Mitch Marcoulier), told me that story and I believe him because he was the guy who repaired it.
like that 🙂
no its not Dweezil
Mitch Marcoulier works for pilgrimms pride chicken 🙂
[quote comment=”2980″]no its not Dweezil[/quote]
a piss poor Cholmondeley impression but dead on the arse-end of it.
To Barry: any word yet on the Zappanale situation? a due date? and if they cant settle out of court, what happens next?
“Not the real andre” – whoever you are, grow up.
soon
[quote comment=”2982″]any word yet on the Zappanale situation? a due date? and if they cant settle out of court, what happens next?[/quote]
The next court meeting has been postponed to Dec 17 — at the request of ZFT lawyers. Quoth Thomas Dippel:
I would like to thank my high-school German teacher at this point 🙂
[quote comment=”2984″]soon[/quote]
It can now be revealed. “not the real andre” is really, none other than, the real Barack Obama.
you got it hiding behind stacks of fried chicken making legislation one one 🙂
well hello folks
yes, it;’s great to be vindicated on the whole July-ZPZ mess.
And as ANYONE who knows me or has been following this nonsense knows — OF COURSE I had NO IDEA that DZ had attempted to “ban me” from his sight…I walked into an AMBUSH, and was NEVER warned about it, by several people. Bummer.
Anyway — I’ve exorcised (since a few days after the bullsh*t) most of the demons about this….Of course this brings it all up.
But I have NO TIME to be negative — I am on a GREAT tour with , again – THE PEOPLE WHO RECORDED THE ACTUAL ALBUMS… that’s always been my mission — to get these guys (and hopefully gals) out there to celebrate what they did…. so — come see us with IKE WILLIS and ED MANN (www.projectobject.com) for info…
Also– you should know that the bitter, relentless attacks of the ZFTyrants continue — once again I was served a threat-letter from Gail’s Los Angeles legal team…also at the same time so was Ugly Radio Rebellion (since they also do some gigs with Ike)..
Sadly — they have to cancel all their dates (4 or 5), while WE have lost ONE date — the Boston show.
the other venues – AS THEY HAVE FOR EIGHT YEARS of these baseless lawsuit threats, have opted to just….put on our entirely legal show. Later on I’ll get the letters up as they are now legally MY PROPERTY, but you folks need to see this stuff up close.
Just this past 12 months — the lawsuits, threats and attacks have been directed at:
Bogus Pomp
URR
Zappanale
the Berlin Street Naming event
Project Object
Sheik Yerbouti (german band)
god knows who else!!!
So– you decide folks. I wish they’d just realize that MANY people will celebrate Frank always – they should too – they are official and all that — but THE ALUMNI will continue to play with people AROUND THE WORLD.
thanks
the Actual Andre’
[quote comment=”2961″]Ok, so please someone help me here and make sure I understand:
Adrian doesn’t tell Andre’ that DZ/ZPZ inc. doesn’t want him on the scene because he (Adrian) “didn’t want to hurt Andre’s feelings.”
Then things get “ugly” meaning Andre’ is almost shoved off stage by a ZPZ employee.
THEN (after all that happened) Adrian Belew STILL went on stage with ZPZ armed with his “harmonica and pitiful Dylan voice” AFTER Andre’ was almost pushed off stage and “banished from watching the show.”
[/quote]
An important detail… The ugly thing happened in Ottawa and the Dylan impersonation in Québec City the day after !
Patrick
do you really think DZ think about how to ambush people i thought he plays guitar — that must a come from from his time at KGB camp zappa send him there to battle the evil ANDRE GUITAR TECH and his support team of zappa tribute bands . to wage the holy war of wazoomondeley against a the always knife spitting bomb exploding legal letter writing gail zappa — BE aware that AZ is on his way back from the HEZBOLLA camp where he was instruced to get rid of the ever wiener waging actual andre ……. make s me wander in what reality you live in there is a book called the course of miracles which can help you to over come these states of mind and be a peace full loving and kind musician 🙂 grow in love
[quote post=”661″]do you really think DZ think about how to ambush people i thought he plays guitar — that must a come from from his time at KGB camp zappa send him there to battle the evil ANDRE GUITAR TECH and his support team of zappa tribute bands . to wage the holy war of wazoomondeley against a the always knife spitting bomb exploding legal letter writing gail zappa — BE aware that AZ is on his way back from the HEZBOLLA camp where he was instruced to get rid of the ever wiener waging actual andre ……. make s me wander in what reality you live in there is a book called the course of miracles which can help you to over come these states of mind and be a peace full loving and kind musician 🙂 grow in love[/quote]
Bravo!
[quote post=”661″]a pint of andre says:
November 18th, 2008 at 9:31 pm » Quote
do you really think DZ think about how to ambush people i thought he plays guitar — that must a come from from his time at KGB camp zappa send him there to battle the evil ANDRE GUITAR TECH and his support team of zappa tribute bands . to wage the holy war of wazoomondeley against a the always knife spitting bomb exploding legal letter writing gail zappa — BE aware that AZ is on his way back from the HEZBOLLA camp where he was instruced to get rid of the ever wiener waging actual andre ……. make s me wander in what reality you live in there is a book called the course of miracles which can help you to over come these states of mind and be a peace full loving and kind musician grow in love[/quote]
What the Hell, that didnt make a lick of sense! Gail, is that you?
liag says it wasnt me lol
I lost a lot (more) respect for the Dweez’ over this. He’s a spoiled brat. On a side note, I caught P/O the other night and guitarist Robbie “Seahag” Mangano shares the same good looks as DZ. They could be near twins. Put him next to Ike on stage and take a few snaps. It would drive the ZFT over the edge.
dweez is a good guy no matter what …………..whats wrong with you guys oh that it 🙂
[quote comment=”3015″]dweez is a good guy no matter what …………..whats wrong with you guys oh that it :)[/quote]
Oh, I forgot, “dweez” is one of the “special” people that isn’t judged by the same standard as the rest of us because he happens to play a musical instrument. Urban, do not pass go, do not collect your Zappa-bucks, and whip yourself severely for even pondering a critical thought concerning Saint Dweezil (can I get an Amen from the choir, boys?).
AMEN
[quote comment=”2988″]well hello folks
yes, it;’s great to be vindicated on the whole July-ZPZ mess.
And as ANYONE who knows me or has been following this nonsense knows — OF COURSE I had NO IDEA that DZ had attempted to “ban me” from his sight…I walked into an AMBUSH, and was NEVER warned about it, by several people. Bummer.
Anyway — I’ve exorcised (since a few days after the bullsh*t) most of the demons about this….Of course this brings it all up.
But I have NO TIME to be negative — I am on a GREAT tour with , again – THE PEOPLE WHO RECORDED THE ACTUAL ALBUMS… that’s always been my mission — to get these guys (and hopefully gals) out there to celebrate what they did…. so — come see us with IKE WILLIS and ED MANN (www.projectobject.com) for info…
Also– you should know that the bitter, relentless attacks of the ZFTyrants continue — once again I was served a threat-letter from Gail’s Los Angeles legal team…also at the same time so was Ugly Radio Rebellion (since they also do some gigs with Ike)..
Sadly — they have to cancel all their dates (4 or 5), while WE have lost ONE date — the Boston show.
the other venues – AS THEY HAVE FOR EIGHT YEARS of these baseless lawsuit threats, have opted to just….put on our entirely legal show. Later on I’ll get the letters up as they are now legally MY PROPERTY, but you folks need to see this stuff up close.
Just this past 12 months — the lawsuits, threats and attacks have been directed at:
Bogus Pomp
URR
Zappanale
the Berlin Street Naming event
Project Object
Sheik Yerbouti (german band)
god knows who else!!!
So– you decide folks. I wish they’d just realize that MANY people will celebrate Frank always – they should too – they are official and all that — but THE ALUMNI will continue to play with people AROUND THE WORLD.
thanks
the Actual Andre'[/quote]
When will you stop with this self absorbed grab for glory and fame on the backs of anything Zappa related? Your own music is mundane and pedestrian so all you have left is to continue to wage a bizarre war against all things Zappa.
Get a life.
You’re about as interesting as one of Paris Hilton’s ex-boy toys. Please go away and find a way to make a living without dragging others into your sick psycho-dramas.
Your lack of respect for the ZFT, Frank’s wife and son is mystifying and your rage and abuse must border on some sort of weird obsession you have with them. Is a restraining order against you in your future??
I wouldn’t be surprised.
No one cares to see your letters from the Zappa lawyers, or any more of your witty rants against Gail or Dweezil. You are sadly like Lenny Bruce, standing on stage near the end of his life reading court transcripts of his obscenity cases instead of doing his comedy routines for the customers.
Have the common decency to step away, get your life back on track (assuming it ever was) and learn to not be where you are not wanted.
LR
well there is the truth thank you LR ………….. lets have a beer and listen to music again 🙂
too bad dweezil doesn’t have the sack to deal with his own problems. asking adrian to do his dirty work??? laughable.
[quote comment=”3033″]
Your lack of respect for the ZFT, Frank’s wife and son is mystifying
[/quote]
and how would a person go about respecting these people and their ‘efforts’ and general ‘good will’ toward the fans, alumni and customers (Barfko Swill is world renown for being an efficient courier of modestly priced YET high quality Zappa Records releases, like Joe’s Menage, Xmassage, Domage and Garbage) ?
[quote comment=”3033″]
No one cares to see your letters from the Zappa lawyers, or any more of your witty rants against Gail or Dweezil. You are sadly like Lenny Bruce, standing on stage near the end of his life reading court transcripts of his obscenity cases instead of doing his comedy routines for the customers.
[/quote]
As I recall, Zappa was a big admirer of Lenny… regardless of which, I for one respect Lenny and Andre’s efforts (though they’re apples and oranges… let’s not loose our heads here…) and in general, speak for yourself, I for one am quite fascinated with the current litigation and dramatics.
I hope you know that these court cases and the ZFT’s harassment of tribute bands concerns the whole of the Zappa community? Whether that be the right to make a safety copy of your official cd, access to a free, downloadable bootleg recording, attending a gathering of Zappa fans and Zappa tribute bands or simply setting up a website celebrating and informing the general public of FZ’s life and music.
To update and trunucate Niemoller: first they came after Zappanale and I didnt speak out, then they came after Chrome Dinette and I didnt speak out, then they came after Project/Object and I didnt speak out, then they came after Killuglyradio.com and I didnt speak out but when they came after me, there was no one left to speak up.
Remember despite our difference in opinion, we’re a community and all this bickering, trolling and assholism is dividing us and creating a toxic environment that discourages people from getting excited or involved with FZ and his music.
In my opinion, the whole thing is ZFT’s attempt to monopolize every facet of Zappa: recordings, official bootlegs, a monothesist tribute band (which is attempting to phase out the alumni, which is sinister in itself) and perhaps their own festival, where they can hock their wares and put up posters of Hillary Clinton or Gore or someother bollocks, but I digress…
Criticism is healthy but name-shouting and this level of douche-baggery is simply uncalled for, it fuels tensions and creates ugly sentiments all around. We should be supporting each other, even by disagreeing, we can still be constructive- and perhaps put an end to all this polarization among us fans.
Like it or not, people like Andre are fighting back against questionable litigation, fighting for the right to perform Zappa music unconstrained by Sloatman’s ridiculous demands. No one wants to wake up pissed at the Great Pumpkin but her paranoid, control trips have left countless associates and fans alike, cold. If Andre and Zappanale et al lose these fights, the right to perform and publicly celebrate Zappa will be grossly impared.
Paul Sempschi, your response to my post was a boring, wordy and rambling exercise in trying to rationalize a position that is etched in fantasy.
No one needs (or wants) Andre the drama queen “fighting back” against the ZFT.
You folks need to take a long, hard look at yourselves and get a clue. You don’t own Zappa’s music, and you have no right to demand anything from the ZFT, let alone think you have the right to tell Gail Zappa and family what you think they should or should not do.
Have you all lost your minds?
andre just wants to gain more recognition with his marching band that why he making so much noise —
i call it early stages of marketing —:)
I hate all the bickering, it’s truly nauseating, I get no thrill from it. However, I greatly enjoy the efforts of both P/O and Ed Palermo (honestly, way more so than ZpZ, for a variety of reasons) and so out of pure selfishness, I support them and want them to continue. If one has attended their shows, Gail’s excuses become laughable. A. They do an excellent job. And B. The audiences can be shockingly small. I see no one getting rich, I see people losing money for the love of the music. That is admirable. I simply have a very hard time sympathising with a millionairess living in the Hollywood Hills.
how do you know all that — fill me in please — let me know —
gail has money ? you mean DZ has money too— looks like all of you know more about the zappas then the zappas them self — hmmmmm
low grade gossip really if you ask me — something zappa didnt like
Rhino, I guess you missed the connection in my post re:right to assembly and free speech with re:to the ZFT’s litigation. Point is, they have very sketchy legal ground for what they’re proposing and even outside of the Zappa community, if they win their suits or if people comply, it only has sinister applications… much like the current discourses against the RIAA and the stulifying choke-hold on the free flow of information and excesses of intellectual property.
How do you feel about the pharmaceutical companies slightly changing the formulas to their product to retain their patents and jack up their prices? Or what about the upcoming non-neutral bandwidth issue?
or a more familiar example,
did Zappa give royalties to the songs he quoted in his works? Should the ZFT give backpay and forfeit the publishing rights to alumni solos within the official catalogue? What about the Flo and Eddie material? should they have sued Zappa over the intellectual property rights to their routines?
These arent rhetorical questions, I would actually like to hear where your stance is on these issues, especially since these problems do not seem to gel well with any ZFT sympathy. It’s a very big problem, globally, and it could mean imaginary guitar solos for all of us.
Though if I am boring you, I’ll make sure to through in some dick and fart jokes next time.
*throw
paul since i dont know you, you must be the one who knows all the if and buts about the zappas and there bussines — tell me please what this is all about. since all the music and rights belong to the zappas what does it matter — all you need to do is ask — or dont you ask to use something which isnt yours ? and what do you care about royalties if they arent yours to get —
Paul Sempschi,
Your circular logic and bait and switch strategies for argument are very nonsensical.
You have no idea if any of the ongoing litigation brought by the ZFT is on “sketchy legal ground.” None at all.
The actions of the ZFT have nothing to do with citizens right to assembly and free speech, but in your convoluted logic you try to make some leap that the two are similar and can be argued as such. Your logic model is, once again, flawed.
Your paragraph about pharmaceuticals and bandwidth have no bearing on any of this and make me wonder if you are a normal thinking person.
Then you go off on a tangent (changing the subject, AGAIN) and babble on about whether FZ paid royalties to whom and for what. May I ask if you are mentally retarded, or are you just drunk or on drugs? You don’t make sense.
No one asked or wants a never ending rhetorical Q&A on issues that have nothing to do with the wishes and desires of the ZFT.
And your rationalization that people enjoy Zappa tribute bands, they play Zappa tunes very enjoyably, and that they are even more justified because they are sparsely attended makes no sense either. The issue is not money, it is the legal rights of ownership and trademark.
What do you know about Gail Zappa’s wealth? And even if you did, what does this have to do with who controls the Zappa legacy?
If it is not authorized by the ZFT it should not occur. Ask permission before you beg forgiveness and stop being the self appointed torch bearers for Frank’s life and legacy. None of you have that right. None of you. None.
Many of you have a bizarre sense of entitlement you do not deserve and never should have assumed in the first place.
Well define ‘normal’ thinking…
Seriously though, I didnt make any comments about if it’s enjoyed, it should be granted, that’s Utilitarianism, which is preposterous… nor did I make any claims re: the Zappa’s wealth. The reason I brought up those examples were because they have to do with intellectual property rights, which is what the issue comes down to.
So, alumni not getting publishing credit for their compositions (therefore no publishing money) would be tatamount to some of what Sloatman is complaining about. Not to mention, the larger ramifications about limiting or charging money for all forms of public performance, broadcast (Chrome Dinette) or the use or reproduction of a person’s image and likeness (the Zappa statue, KUR, etc.).
And the lawsuit against Zappanale does, even inadvertantly, attacks Zappa fans’ right to assembly because that’s what festivals do, they assemble groups of people under a theme or pretense.
But what I wanted to discuss was to what extent can a person own an idea? Copyright law is a means of quantifying and measuring thought, in this regard, Zappa’s thoughts (compositions). Patent law works in the same regard, to allow the inventor an initial incentive to create (pharmaceutical companies) while limiting how long he/she can ‘own’ that thought so others can use it to build on it and further things.
Zappa quoted from other people’s music and he borrowed many techniques, a lot of which would be under copyright and not public domain (look what happened with the Beatles Melody). If Sloatman were to restrict sampling, quoting or public performance of his material by other artists, would that be in the same spirit that Zappa borrowed from others to create his own music? Remember, this is all about “preserving the composer’s intent”.
On top of which, since Zappa is dead, how would one go about doing anything with his music without not “preserving the composer’s intent”? Meaning, with regard to artistic intent, how would you differentiate releasing unreleased recordings (aside from the posthumous ones he prepared) from releasing bootlegs of unreleased recordings? Is it just about where the money goes (and not about ‘intent’ of the artist AS an artist)?
And if no one, not even the bootleggers make money (Friday Boots), is it ethically neutral to this argument?
Again, these arent rhetorical questions, I’m not presenting these as an argumentative statement, I would actually like to hear your opinion, your answer to these because I think it is very important to be discussing property rights and the ‘right’ to access and distribute information.
Especially as Net-Neutrality (the ownership and regulation of a medium and the access to information and art that is posted legally (‘fair use’ being another issue synonymous with ZFT v. Zappa Fans) and originally) is looming over the next few years.
I hope that clears things up and we can have a less toxic conversation and if you dont want to talk about it, either dont respond or change the subject.
God, you’re an idiot. You just posted +10 paragraphs of stupidity that has nothing to do with the original topic, and are limited to your moronic compulsion with points that are so far removed from the issue at hand.
Thanks for wasting my time with more off topic off-the-mark, not-on-the-point drivel.
If you’re not Andre, you’re easily his long lost brother.
Enjoy your lifetime of dementia.
“to the cake van captain”
hahaha, I wish I could play as well as Andre, then I could meet Belew and Dweezil, what could possibly go wrong?
viva la zappa !!!!! who is paul anyways ? he is the owner of the cheese grader at ryko disc 🙂
Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the special Olympics – even if you win, you’re still retarded.
wow this is a real and true statement 🙂
[quote comment=”3050″]viva la zappa !!!!! who is paul anyways ? he is the owner of the cheese grader at ryko disc :)[/quote]
it’s a weird injoke pun… a very long story, it’s not even that funny.
Agreed Alex, lesson learned!
tatata good job alex 🙂 you are my friend now 🙂 a true change worker among us 🙂
Something Paul and I can agree on besides Zappa? Hot damn!
And thank you, Andre’s. Both of yez.
there is truley something spiritual anout this site ommmmmmm:)
about 🙂
I must say, as a Mothers Of Invention fan, I find this is a very strange idea of Lone Rhino, that if we are not genetically or lawfully related to FZ we should gleefully abandon our critical faculties.
Guys like Rhino & the fake andre have a hard time understanding that people fully comprehend Gail’s position and yet can still outright dismiss it. It’s sacrilege to them.
[quote comment=”3036″]
Criticism is healthy but name-shouting and this level of douche-baggery is simply uncalled for, it fuels tensions and creates ugly sentiments all around. We should be supporting each other, even by disagreeing, we can still be constructive- and perhaps put an end to all this polarization among us fans.
[/quote]
Amen Paul
the hippy love crap is nauseating bt it would be nice to see a less toxic atmosphere here in Zappaville. I blame Gail.
Gotta laff, you did nt see the trolls coming for you did ya?
its simple the rights to the music and zappa belongs to GZ and the kids
so what they do with that is ZTF business. so simple trashing gail and DZ nagging about them is what we used to in the sand box —
🙂
yes andre the sump pump, we know. and george bush was trying to protect america and save us from “terra”.
[quote comment=”3082″]its simple the rights to the music and zappa belongs to GZ and the kids
so what they do with that is ZTF business. so simple trashing gail and DZ nagging about them is what we used to in the sand box —
:)[/quote]
Oversimplification, “andre”.
You simply dont understand the other point of view nor do you seem to care about it.
#1-they’re ownership of the rights dont mean they can exert this much control over the ‘use’ of what they own.
#2-read a fucking book or at least a wiki article on “Fair Use”
Oh fuck, I should have listened to Alex better! Off we go into round 2…
My guess is that a lot of the disappointment with/at the ZFT comes from the fact that the ZFT doesn’t have much SOUL. Frank was able to hide/mitigate/make palatable his capitalism with his charisma, actual musical output, inventive powers and, for lack of a better word, SOUL.
The ZFT just doesn’t seem to have much SOUL. Sure, they try to affect FZ’s everything, but it falls short. Their (the ZFT’s) capitalism–their total (attempted) recuperation of and capitalization upon a body of work that they did not create is bald and unrelenting, yet thin and unconvincing at the same time, Totally without the charm, effect and arguably the “intent” of the creator.
Equally disappointing is when fans use the “ownership” defence as a way of rationalizing/congratulating/normalizing what is, in the end, mediocre business practice and repellent behavior. Sure, capitalists are for the most part savages, and sure the end game of capitalism is monopoly and imperialism, and certainly that is what the ZFT (like any capitalist endeavour/organization) is striving for. in that instance, it might be, uh, “nice” if all discourse everywhere at all times were to be contained to hate for the game and not the player. And at the same time, the ZFT might consider that you can get more files with honey than you can with vinegar and that just because FZ was smart, that doesn’t mean everyone else is stupid.
Their sue-everyone strategy is really mind boggling in light of their bald, unrepentant soul-less capitalism. I mean, is there or isn’t there consensus that in the end, mildly menacing letters from Owen J. Sloan esq. of Berger Kahn Attorneys to Project Object and the clubs they play is doing more to alienate and disperse the fan base than it is to encourage and consolidate it? I know I don’t come away from being scolded for being a bad FZ fan wanting to purchase more ZFT licensed product. So why always with the discipline and punish? Is it really working?
And if (since) FZ was so great (and since he made and then left so much goddamn money to the ZFT) where’s the noblesse oblige? Certainly there must be some of that in the San Fernando valley. How much money and power and control of the market does a family trust need to “protect” the “intent” of a musician who is no longer alive to annunciate what that “intent” was, or is in the face of an ever changing world? Just how embattled is the ZFT? Just how deep is Andre and his soap dish cutting into ZFT profit?
Whereas FZ, through sound, blew minds (mine anyway) to the point of total devotion, The ZFT phenomena is, in essence, mediocre capitalism with a litigation fetish expressed through the extremely meticulous ossification/recreation of a long-gone temporal modality WITHOUT any of the original (FZ’s) charm or powers of musical invention.
Without that musical invention, with only the reiteration and repackaging of material that was already realized definitively by the composer/artist (who is now dead and not making new stuff to reiterate and repackage) the whole thing (ZPZ/ZFT/123/BABY YOU AND ME) has little to offer other than an occasion to wish FZ was still alive to give everyone a spanking and show us how to do it right.
Great.
And the silver medal goes to…
if we keep going we make 100 posts
easy there, I cant afford no fryin’ pan at the Green Motel…
If it’s ok with Alex and Lone Rhino, lets consider Paul Sempschi’s gold medal winning post in a little more depth.
“But what I wanted to discuss was to what extent can a person own an idea?”
Thank you Paul–that is an excellent question, and really the crux of the issue.
Just like “Dreams are free, motherfucker” (any of you know who said that? Do you think anyone at the ZFT knows who said that?) ideas are free to those who can wield them. If you can “take it” it’s yours–ESPECIALLY now that FZ, the so called “creator” of the ideas in question has been dead for over a decade. Indeed, the taking (and ultimately the mis-reading and eventual mutation) of ideas is what makes new ideas and as has been pointed out time and time again, something FZ did compulsively.
Capitalism and lawyers want and will to get in between that really cuts at the roots of “our” culture–which might be for the better, as our culture needs to be ripped out and thrown on the burn pile. (Another post for another time–lord knows Lone Rhino doesn’t like it when people go off topic–this is the serious rule filled internet after all)
Back to ideas, those who can play the music of FZ should (if they want). Those who can’t, shouldn’t say they can, but even then, who cares? What’s the real harm–not fake hurt feelings harm, but the real harm.
There is none.
Those who wish to affect the style of FZ in their improvisations/compositions/trips to the barber should do so, as the “original” is dead *and* most of his (original) product is still in print. If they succeed, then great, if they fail, then, well, more cultural rubbish to wade through. What’s the big whup?
DZ and the ZPZ really are a spectacular (though hardly unique) musical phenomena in that they have assimilated a huge body of work and go to great lengths to reproduce it as spectacularly and meticulously as possible all over the world. It would appear that this is appreciated and congratulated regardless of ticket price. What more do they want? Because really, in the end a reproduction is only a reproduction. How much would you pay for a photograph of a painting? In this instance, one hopes that the ZPZ (and Project Object, and the rest of the FZ tribute diaspora) TAKE from Zappa’s music what they need in order to move forward in their own. Coverbands as a step towards something is fine. Coverbands as the end of the line is depressing,
Would it be a good use or a tragic use of DZ’s ample musical gifts if he dedicated the rest of his life to recreating a thing that was done definitively (and recorded by the FZ himself?)
Answer = tragic
However, if DZ were to TAKE FZ’s IDEAS (and effect settings, and instrumentation and every other damn thing) and mutate/misinterpret/build upon them to better suit the exigencies 2008 and not those of 1967-1993, then all the time and money spent will have been worth it (from the musical perspective, and music is the best.)
This is how music progresses. Lawyers and lawsuits and proprietary trade insignia litigation and shoving matches and people telling other people what and what not to talk about on the internet of course has nothing to do with music–a totally separate issue. Efforts to combine or confuse the two are just more evidence of the end times of our current cultural conception.
But who cares about all this. Alex and lone rhino are bored now, so lets get back to making up some zany screen names and talking about the special olympics.
yaaaaay zany screen names!!! yaaaaay special olympics!
[quote comment=”3091″]If it’s ok with Alex and Lone Rhino, lets consider Paul Sempschi’s gold medal winning post in a little more depth.
“But what I wanted to discuss was to what extent can a person own an idea?”
Thank you Paul–that is an excellent question, and really the crux of the issue.
Just like “Dreams are free, motherfucker” (any of you know who said that? Do you think anyone at the ZFT knows who said that?) ideas are free to those who can wield them. If you can “take it” it’s yours–ESPECIALLY now that FZ, the so called “creator” of the ideas in question has been dead for over a decade. Indeed, the taking (and ultimately the mis-reading and eventual mutation) of ideas is what makes new ideas and as has been pointed out time and time again, something FZ did compulsively.
Capitalism and lawyers want and will to get in between that really cuts at the roots of “our” culture–which might be for the better, as our culture needs to be ripped out and thrown on the burn pile. (Another post for another time–lord knows Lone Rhino doesn’t like it when people go off topic–this is the serious rule filled internet after all)
Back to ideas, those who can play the music of FZ should (if they want). Those who can’t, shouldn’t say they can, but even then, who cares? What’s the real harm–not fake hurt feelings harm, but the real harm.
There is none.
Those who wish to affect the style of FZ in their improvisations/compositions/trips to the barber should do so, as the “original” is dead *and* most of his (original) product is still in print. If they succeed, then great, if they fail, then, well, more cultural rubbish to wade through. What’s the big whup?
DZ and the ZPZ really are a spectacular (though hardly unique) musical phenomena in that they have assimilated a huge body of work and go to great lengths to reproduce it as spectacularly and meticulously as possible all over the world. It would appear that this is appreciated and congratulated regardless of ticket price. What more do they want? Because really, in the end a reproduction is only a reproduction. How much would you pay for a photograph of a painting? In this instance, one hopes that the ZPZ (and Project Object, and the rest of the FZ tribute diaspora) TAKE from Zappa’s music what they need in order to move forward in their own. Coverbands as a step towards something is fine. Coverbands as the end of the line is depressing,
Would it be a good use or a tragic use of DZ’s ample musical gifts if he dedicated the rest of his life to recreating a thing that was done definitively (and recorded by the FZ himself?)
Answer = tragic
However, if DZ were to TAKE FZ’s IDEAS (and effect settings, and instrumentation and every other damn thing) and mutate/misinterpret/build upon them to better suit the exigencies 2008 and not those of 1967-1993, then all the time and money spent will have been worth it (from the musical perspective, and music is the best.)
This is how music progresses. Lawyers and lawsuits and proprietary trade insignia litigation and shoving matches and people telling other people what and what not to talk about on the internet of course has nothing to do with music–a totally separate issue. Efforts to combine or confuse the two are just more evidence of the end times of our current cultural conception.
But who cares about all this. Alex and lone rhino are bored now, so lets get back to making up some zany screen names and talking about the special olympics.
yaaaaay zany screen names!!!
yaaaaay special olympics![/quote]
The fact of the matter is the ZFT owns the rights to FZ’s music, images and intellectual property. They do not “own an idea.” Mindless speculation and generic, fancy, self-righteousness is so trite.
Rest of the babbling nonsense above = tragically stupid.
Get a clue.
LR
And how is “intellectual property” and Zappa’s compositions NOT ideas?
Or perhaps you dont understand. You know IDEAS, right? They’re like little pictures or sounds in your head… sort of like memories only they are stuff you can put together out of THOUGHTS (am I going too quick for you?).
Now Rhino, read this carefully because this is important to the discussion:
****So, time after time, Zappa would get one of these IDEAS and mark little black notes down. The little black notes are called a COMPOSITION , this is what you can make MUSIC out of. The composition gets a COPYRIGHT, which, according to law, allows the composer a publishing credit (= royalties) , if recorded by another ARTIST but does NOT allow the COMPOSER OF THE COMPOSITION to universally forbid or control all public performances OR broadcasts. What restricts the ZFT’s universal control over the COMPOSITON (and recordings and images) is FAIR USE.****
Now you should be up to speed about where we are in the conversation, unless I am going too quick for you (it may confuse you because I havent mentioned Andre, Belew or Dweezil).
So, the COMPOSITION was born out of IDEAS.
If you can “own” and regulate a COMPOSITION, you are attempting to own the ARTIST’S IDEAS… which is very difficult because IDEAS are immaterial and cannot be withheld or exchanged for money, like you would a TOASTER.
But we’re not talking about selling OBJECTS now, we are talking about the NATURE of IDEAS and how the BIRTH of IDEAS (thus COMPOSITIONS) is at odds with how those IDEAS are controlled by the COPYRIGHT HOLDER.
When (Dead) Zappa’s IDEAS are being controlled and sold by Gail, the COPYRIGHT HOLDER, she calls this “protecting the composer’s intent”. But Zappa has no INTENT because he is DEAD, so there is no more INTENT. Do you understand now?
If so, please go back and reread previous posts and stop making repetitive and overly simplistic arguments. And next time you dont understand something, dont overcompensate for your ignorance by trolling the thread, just raise your hand and someone will be over to help you shortly…
Hey, Anonymous/LoneRhino/Gail/Dweezil or whoever the f*ck you are…your angry bitter musings here also appear on Adrian’s blog. You win the Special Olympics with the most gold medals of any participant as you obviously enter may “special” events and like your “special” little voice heard ALL OVER THE INTERNET – exactly as you accuse certain others.
Get a life, oh true Queen of Drama, and use your energy toward making something beautiful or contributing to society in a positive way. Most of us reading the forum boards you seem to frequent are all about music and making art. And yes, making love, not war.
Oh, and by the way. Get this through your pseudo-intellectual head once and for all. Dweezil Zappa is an average guitarist incapable of creating any brilliant music of his own. ZPZ is a COVER BAND. D’oh!
But I must say, your arguments to the contrary are hilariously stupid.
why not worry about your own guitar play —>
And to further the conversation for the benefit of Mr. LR: WHY do you think Gail is embracing the “dramatico-musical” angle in her legal argument? YES, because it is entirely LEGAL to broadcast & perform TUNES and she hasn’t a leg to stand on with her first line of defense
(as long as ASCAP/Whatever fees are PAID….which IS NOT the case w/youtube, btw). NOW, honestly ask yourself, is Frank’s music a DRAMATIC performance? Like a Sam Beckett play? Well, maybe BILLY THE MOUNTAIN (especially when one mimics the original voices a la ZPZ). Is ANY tribute band out there PRETENDING or recreating a Beatlemania type FZ overview? NO NO NO. I’m bored now. Enough.
So in other words, a fairly crappy version of Joe’s Garage can be put on with their approval, but Ike can’t do those same songs (and others)?
You guys are trolls for the ZFT. The more you write, the dumber you sound.
[quote comment=”3103″]So in other words, a fairly crappy version of Joe’s Garage can be put on with their approval, but Ike can’t do those same songs (and others)?
You guys are trolls for the ZFT. The more you write, the dumber you sound.[/quote]
From what I’ve viewed thus far, the theatrical version of Joe’s Garage comes across as a second-rate high school production (which is what I suppose one gets when Gail and the ZFT are allowed to put their approval on it). Myself, I see much deeper, darker allegories at work in Joe’s Garage than the simple psycho-sexual innuendoes which the ZFT approved production promotes. For instance, I am quite certain that FZ was entertaining thoughts about the Islamic Revolution in Iran when he created large parts of Joe’s garage, and envisioning a similar-type religious theocracy in America where music, too, would be made illegal, and religious thought police would roam the streets and airwaves announcing, “The White Zone Is For Loading And Unloading Only…If You Need To Load Or Unload, Go To The White Zone…”
eventually the right guy will get his hand on joes garage and do something better give the people a chance to grow 🙂
[quote comment=”3114″]eventually the right guy will get his hand on joes garage and do something better give the people a chance to grow :)[/quote]
One can only hope. What a movie musical it would make. Just imagine the possiblities…
i grew up with zappa and zappa is for growing 🙂
I love how you tards fight with Dweezil and his staff, despise Gail and her lawyers and continue on your merry way exploiting Frank’s music while wrapping yourselves in the flag of Zappa’s Memorial Parade and Pastry Shoppe.
And you soapbox on and seriously pander to the simpleminded with your rambling, topic changind diatribes that qualify as nothing more than pseudo filibusters in an interwebs forum that means nothing in the grand wazoo of things.
Call me angry, call me a troll, call me a Zappa, whatever makes you feel justified in continuing your self righteous, blind ways and your self absorbed and self appointed “duty to “keep FZ’s memory alive” through your mundane FZ cover bands.
Continue criticizing the ZFT album releases too, that’s real classie on your part. It’s too bad you can’t elbow your way into the Zappa inncer circle and rescue them from themselves. Because, of course, you know so much more about any of this than the ZFT does. Cold you be more pompous if you tried??
To sum it up once and for all, delusional assclowns like Paul Sempschi and Andre Cholmondeley do nothing to broaden the knowledge or appreciation of the many fine works of FZ. Yet they insist on some bizarre right to be the keepers of the flame and the voice for all to hear.
The lawyers will eventually suck the marrow from your weak and brittle little bones and we will sadly watch you slowly dry up and turn to dust.
Amen.
Uhh, really long sentences…
I think this is a place for OPINIONS, and everybody has one, with a possibility of sharing it. As long as this place is filled with opinions and experiences about the subject, it’s all right. As soon as one starts (and keeps on) talking about “the other guy” – then it becomes way too personal, angry, emotional – towards the wrong way. Noo need for that.
To sum it up once and for all, everybody in this room is having his/her own opinion – and don’t kid yourself.
Wow…
Rhino, pick up a book on critical thinking (particularly basic Logic and Logical Fallacies), then another on property and copyrights READ them thoroughly and use what you’ve learned in your argument.
Though I dont think you could call your posts ‘arguments’, in the sense that you simply go on and rant and rhetoric about shit you say we’ve said when you clearly lack the most basic understanding of what’s being discussed here.
This is evinced in your accusations of myself and others going off topic… what you would call ‘digressions’ I would call the central issue of the contention between Andre and the ZFT (THE TOPIC) and if you cant see that, there is really nothing you can add here. You simply dont understand… this is going over your pin-head…
The fact is, you’re just repeating your same simplistic conclusion without giving any reasons. Well, your reasoning is tantamount to “I am right, therefore I am right”.
If you’re not a troll, you could have fooled me.
Go back to school, kid…
Baliant,
the voice of reason as usual…
Things must be getting dull or boring over at the zafta dot com forums if folks like Rhino are making their way over to KUR (the home of free thinking, constructive opinions, and thought-provoking news and reviews of anything and everything Zappa related). Believe me, Rhino, you are welcome here, as is everyone who loves FZ — though I do suggest you pick yourself up a copy of Rhetoric, as well as Elements of Style (they’ll do wonders for your prose).
*Watches dust from dry, dead bones slowly blow away*
Can we just pause for a moment and consider where we are in our culture when supporters of the ZFT (and presumably fans of FZ’s oeuvre) hope for the day when lawyers suck the marrow from the bones of other fans of FZ’s oeuvre? An oeuvre, lets remember, that was decidedly anti-lawyer?
[as an aside, has anyone heard of a phenomena called ‘the signature of opposites?]
Lone Rhino, can you write a narrative of what the world would look and sound like if the ZFT were able to crush all opposition (I’m assuming via litigious bone sucking) thus achieving their goals of monopoly and total control over all things created by Frank Zappa, who has been dead now for over a decade?
Maybe we “tards” just can’t comprehend how glorious our future will be once GZ and the ZFT’s will be done, and I suspect that you, Lone Rhino, with your mighty horn, are poised to and capable of showing us the light, the error of our ways and just how groovy everything would be if we would just let the ZFT have their way, totally and absolutely.
Lone Rhino, will there be more or less Zappa music when only DZ and his elect are able to play the music of Frank Zappa?
Will the music of Frank Zappa get any better once the lawyers are done all their sucking and interpretation of a music that was done definitively rests solely in the 80’s metal hands of DZ?
Will Roxy come out any faster?
How about Lumpy Money?
Is the hold up Andre’s fault, or is that the fault we “tards” (we “tards”–get it?) and our pandering to the simple minded? Is that what (who) keeps the ZFT from releasing product when they say they are going to release product?
When all fan sites, tribute bands and unofficial, un sanctioned ZFT activity has been reduced to lawyer-bone-sucked-dry powder dust, will the music of Frank Zappa be any better?
Will ZPZ concerts be more exciting? More “realistic?”
Will the music of ZPZ ever eclipse the (original) music of Frank Zappa? If ZPZ had more money, (SOLD OUT every show at $59,249 a ticket) if Andre’s carrot peeler were sent to the bottom of the ocean, would Frank Zappa’s music be any better? Would the ZPZ’s music be better than Frank Zappa’s music? Would the two become identical? Would the music “live on” or would the ZFT’s interpretation and recuperation of the music “live on?”
Please, we “tards” need help; your writing and ideas are so scintillating, so provocative, so well thought through that I’m confident that with a little more prose you can effect an internet wide correction of those horribly misinformed and skewed perceptions of the ZFT’s behaviour over the last few years and, in so doing, push the ZFT that much closer to their goal of total monopoly and control over a body of work that they did not create.
Thank you Lone Rhino for being such a help! You really are a wonderful emissary for all things ZFT.
I bought a Zappa album once. Who do I see in order to get permission to listen to it?
[quote comment=”3143″]Things must be getting dull or boring over at the zafta dot com forums if folks like Rhino are making their way over to KUR (the home of free thinking, constructive opinions, and thought-provoking news and reviews of anything and everything Zappa related). Believe me, Rhino, you are welcome here, as is everyone who loves FZ — though I do suggest you pick yourself up a copy of Rhetoric, as well as Elements of Style (they’ll do wonders for your prose).[/quote]
Free thinking, constructive opinions?
We must be looking at two different websites.
Great words of wizdom from urbangraffito, the biggest Zappa basher of them all.
“From what I’ve viewed thus far, the theatrical version of Joe’s Garage comes across as a second-rate high school production”.
You know…constructive. Free thinking.
Sly,
Make sure you read Rhino’s posts so that you know what he was talking about… remember, with constructive thinking you can still have dissent, criticism and opinion- but make sure your opinion has a logical progression and acknowledges the opinions of others and the logical progression of their thought…
Yeah, I know it’s boring work but that’s what we call a thoughtful discussion rather than slinging insults and parroting slogans aka “Trolling”.
Contrary to “…constructive. Free thinking.”
You cant spell “Free Thought” without ‘Thought’ or some other innaneity…
[quote comment=”3164″][quote comment=”3143″]Things must be getting dull or boring over at the zafta dot com forums if folks like Rhino are making their way over to KUR (the home of free thinking, constructive opinions, and thought-provoking news and reviews of anything and everything Zappa related). Believe me, Rhino, you are welcome here, as is everyone who loves FZ — though I do suggest you pick yourself up a copy of Rhetoric, as well as Elements of Style (they’ll do wonders for your prose).[/quote]
Free thinking, constructive opinions?
We must be looking at two different websites.
Great words of wizdom from urbangraffito, the biggest Zappa basher of them all.[/quote]
Sly, I kindly suggest you enter the term “zappa.com forum” into this site’s Search The Archives function and read up on the history of that discussion here at KUR before wagging your finger at anyone in particular (I know 122 comments are a lot to read, but for the sake of discussion, at least be informed…)
Indeed, we are looking at two websites: Zappa.com is a business, and KUR is a weblog community of fans (some of us may be critical of the business, but that doesn’t mean we love FZ any less).
As for being the biggest Zappa basher of them all, please produce a single thread or post where I have actually bashed Frank Zappa.
You cannot.
Because only a poofter of extreme proportions would actually think that Frank Zappa and The Zappa Family Trust are one and the same.
Dear Sly,
Fuck you.
Urban is a man who approaches Frank as a human being, not some sort of magical figure to be placed on a pedestal. What IS it with people deifying dead rock stars? The man was not infallible, he didn’t ascend to Mount Olympus upon his demise, and his body is now food for worms (as Ben Franklin has as his own epitaph.)
Go back to the ZFT forums and rejoin those inane and misinformed debates. You and Lone Rhino tie for the gold on this one.
Alex
Just want to say that is indeed me, I’m just on a different computer and hadn’t activated Gravatar.
Did it work this time?
Maybe I’m just as retarded…
Yes. You are.
WTG, Sly.
*Still watching the dusty bones…*
bringing my zappa records to thrift store thats is no more ………
[quote comment=”3170″]Did it work this time?
Maybe I’m just as retarded…[/quote]
…as http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/a9b6d5fe128c8aa35f7b6a0ce2df46e7?s=55&d=http%3A%2F%
2 more bullshit comments and we have 100 bullshit comments !!!!
🙂
99
take one down and pass it around!
buncha retards!!!
[quote comment=”3189″]buncha retards!!![/quote]
[quote comment=”3188″]take one down and pass it around![/quote]
[quote comment=”3187″]99[/quote]
@Alex (not the real Alex): your hair better be getting good in the back…
OR IS THAT A MULLET YOU HAVE?!
…and with that said, I suggest we let this thread die of natural death…
This thread has died of natural death.