Tracks versus Track Versions

[emdebe]

Hey, Emdebe, don't you feel like answering the things discussed here?... ;-)

Where? Where? What question did I leave unanswered?  

I just see that there are things you've been copying for the 5th time here, but I dont think it takes the whole thing foreward. I think I know what the discussion is about, but I just dont get your last few posts. Why dont you write down, what you think?...

What I think is too complex for words. Somebody once said I have a “funny mind”.  

This copy-pasting has a feeling like "god, these guys just dont listen, I have to tell this again and again"

Exactly.  

Nobody’s perfect Bálint. Not even you I suppose. First you push everyone to start working on the discography. Then you start a discussion about the biography: http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Talk:Biography.

That’s one thing. Another thing is that you use titles such as “Wackermanisation”, while you were the one saying

At the moment it seems to be difficult: the threads here are named in a funny way (well, I think so...), but it's not easy to find out, what's behind a name.... So my suggestion is, that here we (=you, hehe, or anybody) when starting a new topic, should just simply give it a SIMPLE, easy-to-understand name.

Please note that I am NOT being confrontational or anything, but sometimes I get confused myself.  

[Bálint]

Hi Emdebe!

Nobody’s perfect Bálint. Not even you I suppose.

That's one thing I had to confront a few decades ago, sadly...

First you push everyone to start working on the discography. Then you start a discussion about the biography

Well... I "pushed" a question only, or a suggestion, and after a few weeks it seems that we're turning to that way - that's great. Although I still dont understand the thing about the disambuouxentationaux pages, but I'll keep on listenning.
I just put the idea on the biography section, because I had one (a half one...), and since my machine broke several times lately, I decided to put it there, to share, to think on it. I did not force anyone to accept that, I did not make a new page or anything - that's all I had, that tiny idea, anyone can use - or ignore - that any time. And since - as I saw it - there was no final decision about the disambugatiopnaux pages, I decided to wait for a while. And: I had ten minutes, I made a suggestion. That's all it is!

you use titles such as “Wackermanisation”,

Not true: I used: Wackermanisation (81-84) (a better title?...) And that is what I thought: its a question. Anyone can come up with a better one. I thought it to be a "SIMPLE, easy-to-understand name" And: if you think it to be funny, than its great, I just thought that the name "Wackerman" says a lot about the times of 81-84. Comments, arguments, better ideas welcome!

*

So: what about the pages of a given song? Can you tell (or copy-paste) for me what the problem is with that?
The ideas of the last few days... Wow, I found them craaaazy... ;-)

B

[emdebe]

Where? Where? What question did I leave unanswered?  

These are actually the questions that are unanswered:

Are we going to document the “Bootlegs” at the Zappa Wiki Jawaka? If yes, how are we going to do so? Do we need a separate Wiki?

Are we going to document the “Tributes & Covers” at the Zappa Wiki Jawaka? If yes, how are we going to do so? Do we need a separate Wiki?

Do we need to create a single Track Page for every track version? What would be the best way to do so? And just to drive Bálint crazy (*): can we solve anything with Disambiguation Pages?

Wouldn’t it be better to move the lyrics to a separate page (especially when there are multiple track versions, and thus different lyrics)?

Wouldn’t it be better to move the album art work to a separate page (to be able to document it better – font cover, back cover, inside cover, booklet)?

And... are there any other questions in search for an answer?  

(*)  



EDIT 1 (how could I forget?): Do we need a separate page for each and every person or thing mentioned on an FZ artifact (cover art, interview, TRFZB, ...)?

EDIT 2: How are we going to attract other people to contribute to the Wiki, so that we don’t have to kick the same butts all the time, or get kicked by the same feet?  

[Bálint]

My votes:

Are we going to document the “Bootlegs” at the Zappa Wiki Jawaka? If yes, how are we going to do so?

I think: yes, in this wiki - but later.

Are we going to document the “Tributes & Covers” at the Zappa Wiki Jawaka? If yes, how are we going to do so? Do we need a separate Wiki?

i think: yes, in this wiki - but later.

Do we need to create a single Track Page for every track version? What would be the best way to do so? And just to drive Bálint crazy (*): can we solve anything with Disambiguation Pages?

I think: 1 page per song. I probably missed something in the discussion, but I think its OK as it is now: all in one page. Easy to find everything with tha table of contents. okay: some changesm suggestions could be fine, but I dont see a reason to hav different pages to everything - that is ONE. One song, one person - etc.

Wouldn’t it be better to move the lyrics to a separate page (especially when there are multiple track versions, and thus different lyrics)?

No. Difficult to find, gives a problem: where to put the notes, comments, etc. And another reason: in a homepage the lyrics is the MAIN thing, the identificating element. If we'd put it somewhere else, the page of a song would be almost only a statistics. Or what.

Wouldn’t it be better to move the album art work to a separate page (to be able to document it better – font cover, back cover, inside cover, booklet)?

Hm, well, maybe... But a tiny picture is a strong need of mine - because of the look of a page, because of the friendliness, because of the easy identification.

Do we need a separate page for each and every person or thing mentioned on an FZ artifact (cover art, interview, TRFZB, ...)?

ONLY if we can provide useful information about him/her. If so: yes. But: the wiki (even wikipedia - of course) works the way that if someone makes an article, he/she will mark the names he/she finds important with a wiki link. If someone comes around and finds that he knows things about that guy, he'll make his page. So its automatic. But (as it is now here sometimes, sadly) making pages just to "have them" is not good - its agains the philosophy of the wiki itself.

How are we going to attract other people to contribute to the Wiki, so that we don’t have to kick the same butts all the time, or get kicked by the same feet?

If wee agree in directions, if we can show our results ("heyy! The first 20 albums are [almost] ready!!!!"), than it will be interesting, it will be fun to join. If the visitor doesnt know the structure (if we dont know...), the reasons, the directions, he wont join. I think.

*

Suggestion:
let the "normal" discography be the first to reach when one clicks on the "discography"!! I think we all got used to the fact that after Freak Out' there's Absolutely Free - and so on... It's really hard to me to use the alphabetical and who knows which version. The "normal" one is so familiar, normal, well known...

Do you agree?

B

[emdebe]

Do we need to create a single Track Page for every track version?

Those who are in favor: Barry, Duncan.
Those who are against: Bálint, emdebe.

Since this leads us to nowhere, we need to hear more opinions!

[Bálint]

Well, the only thing I need is an explanation.

But:

At the moment it seems that we have a disambubu page for Sofa for this one and only sentence:

"This track appeared on One Size Fits All in two incarnations: instrumental - with lyrics."

I just cant understand. One whole new page for this information?... Because of this sentence only?... Why?

Zappa Albums
One Size Fits All - in two incarnations: instrumental - with lyrics, as Sofa No. 1 and Sofa No. 2
In New York
YCDTOSA vol 1.
etc.

Or even:

Zappa Albums
One Size Fits All - in two incarnations: instrumental - with lyrics, as Sofa No. 1 and Sofa No. 2
In New York - instrumental
YCDTOSA vol 1. - with lyrics


Maybe. Or something like that. Or: there could be one clarifying sentence under a given song-title, if its necessary - not "notes and comments", just a few word. Like in the case of Sofa or More Touble Every day:

Touble Every day
(on some albums its called  More Touble Every day)

and later on:

Records On Which This Song Has Appeared
Freak Out!
Roxy and Elsewhere (as More Touble Every day)

(the way I see it.)

B

[Barry]

At the moment it seems that we have a disambubu page for Sofa for this one and only sentence:

"This track appeared on One Size Fits All in two incarnations: instrumental - with lyrics."

I just cant understand. One whole new page for this information?... Because of this sentence only?... Why?

There is one important why.

When someone is looking for a song they know called "Sofa", they will type exactly that in the Go-box -- I do not think they will type in either "Sofa No. 1" or "Sofa No. 2". Now, having typed "Sofa" and hitting Go, they will arrive immediately on a page which explains that there are multiple versions, from which they can further navigate.

Were it not for this general "hub" page called "Sofa", you would end up on a page saying "no page corresponds to your search term" (or something similar).

It's a matter of ease of use for the visitor...

[Bálint]

Well, I think the "big" wiki works this way: if you write "Cassavetes" and hit "go", you will arrive to John Cassavetes, sayin: "redirected from "Cassavetes".

Cannot this be solved this way?

Right now I've found "Trouble Every day" by just going for "trouble". Its that easy - the way I see it.

(But 'im not going for trouble - hehe.)

[Barry]

Well, I think the "big" wiki works this way: if you write "Cassavetes" and hit "go", you will arrive to John Cassavetes, sayin: "redirected from "Cassavetes".

Sure, but you can only be redirected to one page. In the case of "Sofa", or better yet, "Trouble Every Day" - which one should we redirect to?

[Bálint]

I think there should be a page called "Sofa". And all the "Sofa #1" to Sofa #6" links would come to this page, saying that there are 2 versions of it. This way you dont have to create multiple pages, only got to be careful when making the albums on which it was released - I meanthe songlist: [[Sofa|Sofa#1]].

And the same with Trouble Every Day.

[Barry]

I think there should be a page called "Sofa". And all the "Sofa #1" to Sofa #6" links would come to this page, saying that there are 2 versions of it. This way you dont have to create multiple pages, only got to be careful when making the albums on which it was released - I meanthe songlist: [[Sofa|Sofa#1]].

Ummm... but isn't that exactly what I've done?
http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Sofa

[Bálint]

Ummm... but isn't that exactly what I've done?

Nein!...

The way it is now you get to an almost empty page saying nothing more than that there are two versions of this song on One Size Fits All. And what if you're curious about the "In New Your" version? How would you know if THAT one is the instrumental or the one with the vocals? Try? Or (again) we get a long list with ALL the albums listed?

Ich denke:
For any kind of "Sofa" search we should arrive or redirect to the One and Only and Eternal Sofa Page, which should have ALL the informations in it and which might say with tiny words on the top:

this song has two recorded version: with and without lyrics

...and after each albumtitle it can be said:

Master of Puppets (instrumental version)
...And Justice For All (with vocal)

Das ist meine meinung.

[emdebe]

Das ist meine meinung.

Also sprach Disambigorix...  

Sollen Wir weiter gehen in die Deutsche Sprache?

Of houden we het gewoon bij het Nederlands?

 

[emdebe]

For any kind of "Sofa" search we should arrive or redirect to the One and Only and Eternal Sofa Page, which should have ALL the informations in it and which might say with tiny words on the top:
this song has two recorded version: with and without lyrics

Ich denke: Sofa is one thing, but it gets a bit more complicated with, say, "A Pound For A Brown On The Bus":

- Uncle Meat, also containing a 2nd version of this song named The Legend Of The Golden Arches
- You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 5, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)
- Electric Aunt Jemima, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)
- Ahead Of Their Time, as Pound For A Brown
- Our Man In Nirvana, as A Pound For A Brown On The Bus
- Tengo Ná Minchia Tanta, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)
- Swiss Cheese/Fire!, included in track Sofa No. 2 / Eddy Are You Kidding / Stick It Out / King Kong / Wonderful Wino
- Zappa In New York (CD release only, as Pound For A Brown
- Saarbrücken 1978, as Pound For A Brown
- At The Circus, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)
- You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 4, as Pound For A Brown - Solos (1978)
- The Yellow Shark, as Pound For A Brown

and

- Jean-Luc Ponty: King Kong, included in Music For Electric Violin And Low Budget Orchestra

... and then you want to list all different bands and all bandmembers...

... and I'm not even talking about the Bootleg versions...
... and I'm not even talking about the Tributes & Covers versions...

Ich meine: what am I doing here, I'm giving arguments for a split, while I'm against it!?  

[Bálint]

Well well welll....

If you think that A Pound For A Brown is completely different from Pound For A Brown, then you should make it a different pgae, yes.... :-)

Hey, guys, are you serious? I just don't get the point... So what if this song has tiny little changes in the name? Do you seriously say that bacause of this a new page is neccessary? And we'll even make new pages for Ruth, then Ruth Underwood, then Ruth Komanoff, then Ruthie, then Ruthie-Ruthie... Ist it just the same person??

So: yes, one song can appear in different incarnations, but hey, that doesn't mean that its a different song!!! Why is it question at all?

you can go:

Album on which this fine song appeared:
- Uncle Meat (in two versions, one of them is called The Legend Of The Golden Arches
- You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 5, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)
- Electric Aunt Jemima, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)
- Ahead Of Their Time, as Pound For A Brown
- Our Man In Nirvana, as A Pound For A Brown On The Bus
- Tengo Ná Minchia Tanta, as A Pound For A Brown (On The Bus)

und so weiter (as I repeat it for the 4th tme maybe...
.
Hey, we're talking about it for a week now, but its just as simple as this up here. Won't someone tell me exactly (slowly, in detail...) what the problem is with that, or... My hands are getting tired...

:-)

B