Tracks versus Track Versions

[emdebe]

From my perspective, it’s not that important WHERE we put the stuff, if only we can input ALL the stuff.

BUT, this doesn’t solve the problem of overcrowded “Track” pages...

Thus, here we go again: maybe we should put the lyrics on a different page,
and while we’re at it, also the “Tributes & Covers”...

So, “Trouble Every Day” becomes

- “Trouble Every Day”
- “Trouble Every Day Lyrics”
- “Trouble Every Day Covers”

BUT, this doesn’t solve Duncan’s problem with the track versions...

So, “Trouble Every Day” should become

- “Trouble Every Day”
- “Trouble Every Day Lyrics”
- “Trouble Every Day Covers”
- “More Trouble Every Day”
- “More Trouble Every Day Lyrics”
- “More Trouble Every Day Covers”
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day”
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day Lyrics”
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day Covers”
- “Trouble Everyday”
- “Trouble Everyday Lyrics”
- “Trouble Everyday Covers”

BUT, this doesn’t solve the problem of keeping it all together...

So, “Trouble Every Day” should become

- “Trouble Every Day” *
- “Trouble Every Day (The Track)”
- “Trouble Every Day (The Lyrics)”
- “Trouble Every Day (The Covers)”
- “More Trouble Every Day” *
- “More Trouble Every Day (The Track)”
- “More Trouble Every Day (The Lyrics)”
- “More Trouble Every Day (The Covers)”
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day” *
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day (The Track)”
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day (The Lyrics)”
- “Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day (The Covers)”
- “Trouble Everyday” *
- “Trouble Everyday” (The Track)
- “Trouble Everyday (The Lyrics)”
- “Trouble Everyday (The Covers)”

* being “Disambiguation Pages”


Although this looks scary, it is less scary than

- More Trouble Every Day (Roxy & Elsewhere)
- More Trouble Every Day (The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life)
- Trouble Comin' Ev'ry Day (You Can't Kill The Bogeyman) ~ Cortex
- Trouble Comin' Every Day (Battle of Eric Burdon & the Animals and the Mothers of Invention)
- Trouble Comin' Every Day (Pain & Paradise) ~ The Nighthawks
- Trouble Comin' Every Day (Panta From Brain Police Meets Frank Zappa)
- Trouble Comin' Every Day (Preg-Nant)
- Trouble Comin' Every Day (Sing Sing) ~ The Honeymoon Killers
- Trouble Comin' Every Day (Who Are the Brain Police) - single
- Trouble Coming Every Day (Human Garbage) ~ The Deviants
- Trouble Coming Every Day (Partial Recall) ~ Mick Farren & The Deviants
- Trouble Coming Every Day (Vampires Stole My Lunch Money) ~ Mick Farren & The Deviants
- Trouble Every Day (April '88 Sampler)
- Trouble Every Day (Bob Row Trio)
- Trouble Every Day (Clean American Version )
- Trouble Every Day (Does Humor Belong In Music?)
- Trouble Every Day (Ernst) ~ Ernst
- Trouble Every Day (Final Chapter) ~ Jack O'Fire
- Trouble Every Day (Frank You, Thank!) ~ FLa Macchina Ossuta
- Trouble Every Day (Freak Out!)
- Trouble Every Day (FZ 25)
- Trouble Every Day (Insanity Sauce) ~ Sheik Yerbouti
- Trouble Every Day (Kill Ugly Radio Some More)
- Trouble Every Day (My Dog Popper) ~ Fifi
- Trouble Every Day (My New Life) ~ Eugene Chadbourne
- Trouble Every Day (Sarek) ~ Sarek
- Trouble Every Day (Sílenství) ~ Milan Hlavsa
- Trouble Every Day (Strictly Commercial)
- Trouble Every Day (The Big Note) ~ Sheik Yerbouti
- Trouble Every Day (The Old Masters Box I)
- Trouble Every Day (Threesome No. 1)
- Trouble Every Day (Vol. 3) ~ Nazo Nazo Shokai
- Trouble Every Day (You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore vol. 5)
- Trouble Every Day (You Can't Do That on the Radio Anymore0)
- Trouble Every Day (Zappanale #10) ~ Band Project Hamburg
- Trouble Every Day (Zappanale #10) ~ Sheik Yerbouti
- Trouble Everyday (Avenue Breakdown) ~ Backbone Slip
- Trouble Everyday (Daddy Longlegs) ~ Tumbleweed
- Trouble Everyday (In Cerca Di Mr. Zappa) ~ Pipco
- Trouble Everyday (More Songs From The Campfire) ~ The Muffin Men
- Trouble Everyday (Mystery Disc) ~ Bleeding Romeo
- Trouble Everyday (Quite Mad To Be Frank) ~ The Madmen
- Trouble Everyday (Rockin' My Life Away) ~ George Thorogood & The Destroyers
- Who Are the Brain Police (Trouble Comin' Every Day) - single

All this written from the perspective of ONE single wiki (the way we initially said it would be).

I have to take my pills now...  

[Bálint]

Sorry guy, shoot me if I'm mad, but I simply dont get the point...

NOW we have a Trouble Every Day page, right? Automatically every Trouble Every Day wiki-link comes to this page.

NOW we do have all the lyrics on that page, easily reachable, or accessible, or what. Is it easy to find? Yes. For the players: they can be written up there too, even maybe after each lyrics-version. It might be one question, a problem to solve, but for this 100 more pages... nooooo!!!

And: there's still more room, so here can be listed all the albums it was released on, and then all bootlegs - just as it is, right now.
But why should we repeat the title again and again? I dont get it.

And: for MORE trouble every day there should be a "cross-link" or what to get here. Right the way it is now. What's the problem with that?

One page, with all the information on it about a song. The noes,the comments should be put in here only once. And if somebody's looking for this song, he/she will find: "yes, it has 5 versions, it has a background, and was played on this and this recording."

Sorry, again - I simply cant see whats the problem with that, why make a totally different structure. I dint understand....

B

[emdebe]

Sorry guy, shoot me if I'm mad, but I simply dont get the point...

Relax Bálint, it's just a compilation of the ideas that are floating around these days.
Blame Duncan and Barry for it...  

I'm not sure that any of the currently know alternatives to today's situation are any better than the current situation... But at least we are trying.

And next time - before you get another heart attack - watch for signs that might indicate that maybe things are not as serious as they look, like:

I have to take my pills now...  

[Bálint]

Well, since its the 100th comment on these disambuouiauxeuos pages, and you even copy here a list of 200 More Troubles, with or without a smiley, i get a heart attack...

:-)

So: I might missed how all this started, but I just dont see ANY good in this... That's why I'M curious about it.

emBe

[SOFA]

Could there not be a link - Covers - for each track that would lead to a list of Groups who have covered the song, rather than an individual page for every time a group has covered it?
Example:
Trouble Every Day [Cover] would lead to the list -
- Trouble Every Day (Bob Row Trio)
- Trouble Every Day (Ernst) ~ Ernst
- Trouble Every Day (Final Chapter) ~ Jack O'Fire
- Trouble Every Day (Frank You, Thank!) ~ FLa Macchina Ossuta
- Trouble Every Day (Insanity Sauce) ~ Sheik Yerbouti
- Trouble Every Day (My Dog Popper) ~ Fifi
- Trouble Every Day (My New Life) ~ Eugene Chadbourne
- Trouble Every Day (Sarek) ~ Sarek
- Trouble Every Day (Sílenství) ~ Milan Hlavsa
- Trouble Every Day (The Big Note) ~ Sheik Yerbouti
- Trouble Every Day (Vol. 3) ~ Nazo Nazo Shokai
- Trouble Every Day (Zappanale #10) ~ Band Project Hamburg
- Trouble Every Day (Zappanale #10) ~ Sheik Yerbouti
- Trouble Everyday (Avenue Breakdown) ~ Backbone Slip
- Trouble Everyday (Daddy Longlegs) ~ Tumbleweed
- Trouble Everyday (In Cerca Di Mr. Zappa) ~ Pipco
- Trouble Everyday (More Songs From The Campfire) ~ The Muffin Men
- Trouble Everyday (Mystery Disc) ~ Bleeding Romeo
- Trouble Everyday (Quite Mad To Be Frank) ~ The Madmen
- Trouble Everyday (Rockin' My Life Away) ~ George Thorogood & The Destroyers

Ya see, tho' I agree that these covers deserve to be listed in the wiki somewhere, do they all deserve their own page? I think this is what Balint (& Barry) is getting at. Do we really need a page for every cover band and cover track? Deserving a mention, and deserving a page, are two different things...
And I'm not convinced that every track listed deserves a page (direct FZ involvement = page; no FZ = no page).
Hmmm?

[SOFA]

Deserving a mention, and deserving a page, are two different things...

Much the same as every "List" FZ made should be listed (mentioned), but does every name on a given list deserve a page?
I say this more in light of the "official" stuff that has yet to be fleshed out compared to the minutia that can be fleshed out later. I think  a lot of the frustrations expressed lately is over the fact that we have an extremely complex skeleton with very little meat on the bones...

[emdebe]

Ya see, tho' I agree that these covers deserve to be listed in the wiki somewhere, do they all deserve their own page?

That's what we are trying to figure out.
Probably not.
One of these days we're gonna find a model that fits all (everybody, that is)
(I hope).

[emdebe]

Much the same as every "List" FZ made should be listed (mentioned), but does every name on a given list deserve a page?

Probably not.

That's what I tried to explain some time ago
(but nobody noticed it, or my explaining wasn't good enough):

Most of the "skeleton pages" are linked to the many "lists" (Freak Out, OSFA Universe, WOIFTM, TRFZB, etc.). When we started the Wiki Jawaka in March, these pages seemed to be a good idea (we were enthusiast about just anything, I guess).

After a fast start, things – with the "skeleton pages" - began to slow down, and finally almost died. There are 2 reasons for it. One: people (Wiki Jawaka contributors) began to ask if all these pages (about "Cheeseburgers" and the like) were really necessary. Two: well, let’s just say that I’m in a profession where most of the time anything seems to happen for no reason at all... And that’s the reason I cannot guarantee full-time delivery of contributions to the Wiki Jawaka...  

I think the comments I get about the "skeleton pages" are partially correct in that "empty" pages don’t make sense. Of course, in due time, these would have been filled, if only I had the time to do it... Since I don’t have that much time to spare, and since not everybody is happy with the existence of some / many / all of them, I think now is the time to make a "fundamental" decision about them.

The way I see it now, taken into account the things I mentioned above, is that I want to keep the "lists", but not necessary the linked ("skeleton") pages. I think the “lists” are an integral part of anything concerning FZ. I even (dare to) think that most Wiki Jawaka contributors can agree with that.

But I’m thinking of "regrouping" each list on 1 page. This basically means that a lot of "skeleton", but also already completed pages, would be deleted – their contents being pasted onto the particular "list page". That way we keep a – theoretically – good idea, and get rid of the annoyances.

The only exceptions to the rule would be pages that are referenced frequently (by multiple lists or other subjects; case in point: Captain Beefheart, who is not only listed on the, err, lists, but plays an important role in FZ’s life).

To quote Bálint: waddeyouthink?

Additional question: am I making myself clear?

Obviously, I wasn't making myself clear...

[Barry]

I think  a lot of the frustrations expressed lately is over the fact that we have an extremely complex skeleton with very little meat on the bones...

... and that, friends, is what I call "wonderfully lucid eloquence". I could not agree more.

[Barry]

Seriously: I have been hitting the Random Page link for about 15 minutes now and the amount of totally meaningless pages I've come across is in the order of 75 to 80%. A typical example (there must be dozens upon dozens of these):

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/The_Thing

Until any and all of these floating Pages About Nothing have been either filled with content or deleted, I think it would be laughable to start up a second wiki. Let's get our act together on the official discography first (as has been said many a time), before we go and do anything else, is what I say.

[SOFA]

Obviously, I wasn't making myself clear...

Somehow, I completely missed this post (probably one of those times when the forum was either clogged with FZ forum folk, or Uncle Beaters).
Sorry, emdebe, I couldn't agree with you more...
Back when we started, I stuck a list up (culled from Geir's Musishinun's List), and then set about filling each page on the list. Some growing happened along the way, but it remains one part of the wiki that has a little meat.
I think Barry is right in that we tackle the Discography (official releases first) list next - or, at least, hold off on other disk lists while the official one gets filled.
And I have a recommendation for the Boots list, when it's time to start on that. I think we should use the gig list as a launch point. As the majority of Boots contain material from a concert (or several concerts), it seems prudent to me to start with a list of all concerts and then connect the concert tracks with any relevant Boots. I feel it makes the most sense to start broad and work in - rather than the other way around.
And I must say that this particular thread has been the most comprehensive - and kind - we've had to date.
Getting better all the time...

[emdebe]

Seriously: I have been hitting the Random Page link for about 15 minutes now and the amount of totally meaningless pages I've come across is in the order of 75 to 80%. A typical example (there must be dozens upon dozens of these):

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/The_Thing

Until any and all of these floating Pages About Nothing have been either filled with content or deleted, I think it would be laughable to start up a second wiki. Let's get our act together on the official discography first (as has been said many a time), before we go and do anything else, is what I say.

Look at him go...  

While it says, just above:

Much the same as every "List" FZ made should be listed (mentioned), but does every name on a given list deserve a page?

Probably not.

That's what I tried to explain some time ago
(but nobody noticed it, or my explaining wasn't good enough):
 

Most of the "skeleton pages" are linked to the many "lists" (Freak Out, OSFA Universe, WOIFTM, TRFZB, etc.). When we started the Wiki Jawaka in March, these pages seemed to be a good idea (we were enthusiast about just anything, I guess).

After a fast start, things – with the "skeleton pages" - began to slow down, and finally almost died. There are 2 reasons for it. One: people (Wiki Jawaka contributors) began to ask if all these pages (about "Cheeseburgers" and the like) were really necessary. Two: well, let’s just say that I’m in a profession where most of the time anything seems to happen for no reason at all... And that’s the reason I cannot guarantee full-time delivery of contributions to the Wiki Jawaka...  

I think the comments I get about the "skeleton pages" are partially correct in that "empty" pages don’t make sense. Of course, in due time, these would have been filled, if only I had the time to do it... Since I don’t have that much time to spare, and since not everybody is happy with the existence of some / many / all of them, I think now is the time to make a "fundamental" decision about them.

The way I see it now, taken into account the things I mentioned above, is that I want to keep the "lists", but not necessary the linked ("skeleton") pages. I think the “lists” are an integral part of anything concerning FZ. I even (dare to) think that most Wiki Jawaka contributors can agree with that.

But I’m thinking of "regrouping" each list on 1 page. This basically means that a lot of "skeleton", but also already completed pages, would be deleted – their contents being pasted onto the particular "list page". That way we keep a – theoretically – good idea, and get rid of the annoyances.

The only exceptions to the rule would be pages that are referenced frequently (by multiple lists or other subjects; case in point: Captain Beefheart, who is not only listed on the, err, lists, but plays an important role in FZ’s life).

To quote Bálint: waddeyouthink?

Additional question: am I making myself clear?

Obviously, I wasn't making myself clear...

[emdebe]

Let's get our act together on the official discography first (as has been said many a time), before we go and do anything else, is what I say.

Barry is right in that we tackle the Discography (official releases first) list next - or, at least, hold off on other disk lists while the official one gets filled.

Have you guys visited the wiki lately?

[emdebe]

Until any and all of these floating Pages About Nothing have been either filled with content or deleted, I think it would be laughable to start up a second wiki.

From my perspective, it’s not that important WHERE we put the stuff, if only we can input ALL the stuff.

[Bálint]

Hey, Emdebe, don't you feel like answering the things discussed here?... ;-) I just see that there are things you've been copying for the 5th time here, but I dont think it takes the whole thing foreward. I think I know what the discussion is about, but I just dont get your last few posts. Why dont you write down, what you think?...
This copy-pasting has a feeling like "god, these guys just dont listen, I have to tell this again and again" - but I think I read them, but I dont really know what are these answers for...

So: wouldn't it be easyer to simply write an answer, about what you think at the moment?...;-)

B