Is the Zappa Wiki Jawaka dead meat, or what?

[emdebe]

I’ve been away from the Wiki for more than a month now, so I decided to take a look at the fundamental changes that took place ever since. There were none...

After that, I took a look at the (KUR) Wiki Forum to spot any important decisions made ever since. There were none...

So where is this thing going, anyway?

Is it – überhaupt – going anywhere?

Or is it just dead meat?

[Bálint]

Hi emdebe,

no, i dont think its dead, but I personally do not have too much time, and - as we'd been discussing about it earlier - there are way too many "skeleton" pages around, you also deleted the "normal" discography last time you disappeared, so its not to easy for me to find where we are, what are the missing parts.

Anyway, you are welcome back (again), if you're about to contribute, but it is really important to have some common ideas to follow, and not just doing stuff and disappearing, again and again.

And yes: I'd like to keep on contributing, but its really not easy to find where we are, since there are really tons of "skeletons", so I always have to take a deap breath to start it again, to discuss it again...

B

and sorry to say, but one more thing:

I do not think it to be too elegant to
1. simply disappear when there were things to be discussed, just because there were opinions not similar to yours.
2. simply delete some stuff (I mean the "normal" discography", for example). I cannot make it back, so I feel sorry for that.
3. Coming back now smiling, asking "how long did you get without me?"...

Well, after the skeleton pages and stuff, it's not easy. But (I hope) we'll try.

Don't you want to join and help us?

B

[emdebe]

Just a few elucidations.

I’m not smiling, I’m not laughing. I’m serious as a heart attack. Remember, I was the one hoping this Wiki thing would succeed. As a matter of fact, I still do.

I did not “simply disappear”. I stepped aside, because some people thought I was standing in their way.

In my view, there’s not too much wrong with the Wiki, as it is. Not even the “skeleton pages” (who could be helpful to people who just want to fill-in-the-blanks). It’s not the “skeleton pages” blocking the road to success.

[Bálint]

Hi emdebe,

then it seems we all hope that this will succed - now I would like to speak for myself, telling my feelings:
For ME, those "skeleton" pages give a big problem: there are tons of cathegorized othervise empty pages, and the links belonging to them thus became blue -> so they dont show me (or to anyone else) that there are to cintent behind it. But: in the wiki that is what the blue and red links are: to show the main difference. This is a BIG problem for me. I really dont know where to join, what to do, how to contribute. Yes, I might guess, but I dont have that much time, at the moment.
Anyaway, I dont think it "could be helpful to people who just want to fill-in-the-blanks" - we just dont know which ones are the empty ones - as I wrote it above.

There are long lists you made ("Freak Out! (The List)", "We're Only In It For the Money (The List)", "One Size Fits All (The List), "Them Or Us (The List)", "Tinsel Town Rebellion (The List)", PMRC (The List)), with tons of word - content: nothing. Those  are all cathegirized empty pages. Now: no one else but you will be able to finish that, or even use that, because no one knows, (1), what are those words/places, (2) no one knows, which one has content behind it, and which doesnt.

*

So its okay if you stepped aside, but its also okay if you wish to HELP. I dont think you were standing "in someone's way", it only seems to me you did noot care to  listen to anybody, and - sorry, but - as you got some criticizm, you disappeared. Your knoledge is huge, your work till this day is huge, but the main thing in this wiki is making things together, not all alone, just the way you think it.

My suggestions:
- I think the blank, "skeleton" pages should be deleted, and made once again, this time WITH content, and cathegirization should coe AFTER it. No one knows, which ones are those emplty places, maybe this should be your work.

- there were 3 or 4 tipes of discographies. It got some criticizm - you deleted almost All OF THEM. No, they should not be deleted - they should be modified, or talked about. Can you please make it back in a way or another?

And so on - there are several ways to work together - but I think we must watch, listen to each ocher.

The way I see it.

B

[emdebe]

Elucidations, some more.

There is nothing new in what you say. You’re “accusations” have been denied before, and they will be denied again...

As I’ve said before: I was the first to take the stand for "collaboration", and I was the first to take the stand against "misbehavior".

Sometimes people have a short memory, it seems. For full details see http://www.killuglyradio.com/discuss/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=600

Moreover, when I removed the “miscellaneous” discographies, it wasn’t because of criticism, it was because some people planned a “major change” in the naming of pages (remember the "disambiguation pages" and stuff like that?).

Of course, there’s always the regular discography at http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Category:Discography, more particular at http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Category:Original_Albums...

[Bálint]

As I’ve said before: I was the first to take the stand for "collaboration"

Great! Feel free to join in - the things I've made today are here.

Question:
What do you think about the "skeleton pages"? Do you feel like completeing them, or would it be the best to delete those pages?

and:
Thank you, I've found (of course earlyer, too) those discographies, but I dont find the "Official" one, the one from Freak Out! to QuAUDIOPHILIac. Can you make it back?

Thanks!

emBe

[Chris]

"There is nothing new in what you say. You’re [sic] 'accusations' have been denied before, and they will be denied again..."

Sorry, only adults here. This isn't the Zappa.com forum (thankfully).

Stop deleting things from the Wiki. That's not "collaboration." How much more clearly can we articulate it?

[emdebe]

"There is nothing new in what you say. You’re [sic] 'accusations' have been denied before, and they will be denied again..."

Sorry, only adults here. This isn't the Zappa.com forum (thankfully).

Stop deleting things from the Wiki. That's not "collaboration." How much more clearly can we articulate it?

Just what the world was waiting for: another diagnosis by Dr. Chris.

Why can’t you stick to the facts? When an ordinary guy like me adds – say – a 1000 pages to the Wiki – give and take a few (and not all of them being “skeleton pages”) – and then decides to remove 3 of them, because other people are planning a renaming scheme (that, after all, did not happen) for albums and tracks... what’s the big deal? Did I delete the “official” discography? Nope. Did I delete anything from somebody else? Nope. Did the Wiki fall apart? Nope. Did anyone get hurt? Nope.

I didn’t hear you when Dunk said he was going to remove the content of the Biography page. I didn’t hear you when Bálint said he was going to delete the “skeleton pages”. Do I sense a bit of prejudice here?

Although they are not there anymore, I’ve seen the “Mr. Split Personality” and the “Mentally Funny”, blahs... A bit pompous, were they not? Adults only, you said?

A lot of energy is wasted on things that have nothing to do with the Wiki. A lot of energy is wasted on complaining about other people’s contributions. Especially those who contributed the most got shitloads of, er, whatever over their heads. What’s the point of all this?

We are not professional writers; we’re just a bunch of amateurs who happen to like FZ music, and who have this urge to tell HIStory. We contribute on a voluntary basis to the Wiki, to the best of our knowledge. If somebody thinks he can do it better, there’s always the Edit button.

It is important to distinguish fact from opinion. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, and others are entitled to disagree with it. Remember that this Forum aims at supporting the Wiki Jawaka. It is not a soapbox for personal snipes, ego trips or flame wars. How much more clearly can I articulate it?

[Bálint]

Hi!

Did I delete the “official” discography? Nope.

Great to hear that - again. Can you tell me where it is? I'd like to use it (I mean the one from "Freak Out" to QuAD"). Thanks!

I didn’t hear you when Bálint said he was going to delete the “skeleton pages”.

Not true, I did not say that - I did not do it. I was thinking about it, talking about it - waiting for your answer. So: should we delete those EMPTY pages (I'm not talking abot the list itself, but the other empty pages BEHIND it), or are you about to fill them with content?
Do I sense a bit of prejudice here?

*

And the question again: how about your decision: will you keep on contributing, with a bit more of conversation and care for each others opinions, or will you just come back once in a month to...

to... I REALLY dont know what for.

*

Sorry, I really dont understand the way you do things.

B

[emdebe]

The return of the son of elucidations.

Bálint,

I don’t understand your fixation with the “skeleton pages”. In my view, there is nothing wrong with them. So I won’t be the one who is going to delete them (my name is already “Demolition Man”, apparently)...

Bálint (again),

The only “official” discography, is the one sitting under the heading Discography on the Main Page:
http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Category:Discography... All the other ones were merely handcrafted experiments; they never reached the “official” status... The one you are looking for is sitting at your “User talk:Balint” Page: http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/User_talk:Balint... Note “Bálint” vs. “Balint”... So, what’s on http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/User_talk:Balint, should be on http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/User_talk:Bálint, but it isn’t (ask Barry why he did it)...

[Bálint]

Hi emdebe,

I don’t understand your fixation with the “skeleton pages”. In my view, there is nothing wrong with them.

Well, not exactly what I call a

In my view, there IS some problems with them (remember: blue/red...) never mind, I wrote it down a few times earlier, I wont do that again. I'm unable to do that - never mind, I'll find guys to help me.

As for the discography: I know the link you copied 3 times, the question was: can it be put to back the main page? I've found a red link in your sandbox, so it means it was deleted. Interesting, that if I take a look at the history of the discography, its also missing there (red link). Is it because of this:

Emdebe m (some items temporarely removed to reconcider)

But the main question AGAIN: what are your goals? Dissappearing? Contributing? Appearing here once in a month to have a... well... a  chat? Opening a new thread again and again, remembering the "old tilmes"?

B

[emdebe]

By popular request

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Album_History

and

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Album_Chronology

were recreated, and links to them were added on

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Category:Zappa_Per_Album

and

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Category:Discography

Enjoy!

[emdebe]

Hi emdebe,

I don’t understand your fixation with the “skeleton pages”. In my view, there is nothing wrong with them.

Well, not exactly what I call a

A what...? Something nasty?

By the way the full quote reads:

I don’t understand your fixation with the “skeleton pages”. In my view, there is nothing wrong with them. So I won’t be the one who is going to delete them (my name is already “Demolition Man”, apparently)...

It only says that I won’t delete them. I doesn’t say that they can’t be deleted, if a majority of contributing people think they have to be deleted...

Just think of the consequences when deleting pages (links to them, categorization, ...)...

[emdebe]

The first thing I noticed when I entered the wiki today, was a whinge by Bálint,... followed by a whinge by Duncan... It is becoming a daily habit (ritual?)... and it has been going on for ages. Before somebody jumps on my back: this is an observation, not an appreciation.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to find my way around all the discussions... Before somebody jumps through hoops of real fire: some of them where actually started by me.

There are seemingly troubles with the Discography. There is apparently discontent about the “disambiguation pages”. There are ostensibly issues with naming conventions. There are purportedly difficulties with “skeleton pages”. There is allegedly unhappiness with the Biography. There are presumably tons of other reasons for not liking the wiki. There is displeasure with this, disgruntlement with that,... dissatisfaction all over the place...

In other words: there are many signals that “something's rotten in the state of Denmark” (to quote a little-known writer).

Are we close to the edge of splitting up?

Does anybody see a light at the end of the tunnel?

[Bálint]

Hi Emdebe,

thank you for the word whinge - I didn't know that, had to look up in the dictionary. A really nice one - thank you, again.

So: I really thought I ASKED something, about the movie Burnt Weenie Sandwitch. So: it was - and is - a question, it migght be answered (thanks for he link, I've seen that before)

Is the wiki something we make together? - yes.
Is it constructed the way questions can - and sometimes MUST be asked? - yes.
Did we agree that we'll make it together and TALK about it? - yes.
Can a question be offensive or rude?... - I hope not.

Last time (about FZ Tributos) I made a mistake, it was because my clock shows a different time and I thought that it was left there that way. I sorry for that. But: othervise I think I ask QUESTIONS, that can be talked about. That is waht the wiki for!
And sorry - but If you dont like questions, maybe youshould hide away somewhere to finally write your own book alone. I will not promise that I'll never ask again. If its something that means "the end of the wiki" for you... sorry. I think its the main thing in the wiki. To ask.

And another important part is: to answer.

*

"troubles with the Discography" - was it not ME who suggested to finally make a "sample-page"?...
difficulties with “skeleton pages”. - no difficulties, but problems to be solved. And we should not make any more of them.
"unhappiness with the Biography." - Where is the alternative? Who has some better idea? Come on, show me!
"tons of other reasons for not liking the wiki" - I like the wiki, about to make a wiki for my private use. I dont like not-getting-an-answer, I dont like wrong or not-finished pages, I dont like being personal - things that depens on us. Its not a "wiki-question".

"Are we close to the edge of splitting up?" - you were close (several times) to quit the whole thing. And - sorry - there were some guys not contributing because of you. If you dont like dialogs, questions/answers, solving problems, its free to leave (again). Well, the idea of finishing it all because YOU dont like things... not too elegant.

*

whinged by me:

Bálint