It was fun for as long as it lasted

[emdebe]

... you're pushing this thing to realms of meta-talk that are way beyond the fringe of a Zappa wiki...

And in doing so, I might add, I think we're losing potential contributors. You scare the hell out of anyone wanting to contribute...

The way I see it, Barry, these are SERIOUS ACCUSATIONS…

So, this is the deal we’re dealing: as long as THE OTHER PEOPLE can’t convince me that you’re seriously exaggerating, I will STOP CONTRIBUTING to the Wiki Jawaka.

It was fun for as long as it lasted.

I wish you all THE BEST in pursuing the creation of the ultimate FZ website.

[Bobo]

When I look at the number of people who actually voted on this (and Barry probably voted 3 times  ), I must conclude that we’re not in this for the anonymous visitor, we’re not in this for the FZ fan, … apparently we’re only in for ourselves…

... you're pushing this thing to realms of meta-talk that are way beyond the fringe of a Zappa wiki...

And in doing so, I might add, I think we're losing potential contributors. You scare the hell out of anyone wanting to contribute...

The way I see it, Barry, these are SERIOUS ACCUSATIONS…

So, this is the deal we’re dealing: as long as THE OTHER PEOPLE can’t convince me that you’re seriously exaggerating, I will STOP CONTRIBUTING to the Wiki Jawaka.

It was fun for as long as it lasted.

I wish you all THE BEST in pursuing the creation of the ultimate FZ website.

I'm sure you you're a very dedicated and enthousiastic FZ fan with huge a drive to make a positive contribution to the FZ community. But I'm afraid Barry could be right, your enthousiastic approach does scare people willing to contribute. I was thinking about contributing but all the Wiki posts going from one end to the other just made it impossible to fully grasp what was going on. So I decide to wait until a more definitive Wiki structure would emerge.

But to be honest, these last posts give me a kinda deja vu feeling, I've seen posts with the same look and feel before from Isaac (no offence). Isaac is an old acquaintance of KUR. I guess that, just like you, Isaac is very knowledgable on Zappa but he is less a team player. When things were not going his way, he started reacting in a similar manner as you did: he started ridiculing Barry and posting treathlike messages. Why are people reacting like this, surely, those who do not agree on how people are trying to run things can try do make a better effort of their own on the web.

As for the Wiki initiative, this should be the effort of a team, working as a team discussing things by talking and listening to each other. In this kind of group efforts it is also very important not to press things and to stay focussed on what needs to be done. In this way everybody can keep up on how things are running.
If not, the group effort  turns into anarchy and expect for some good music in the eighties, not many creative things have come out of anarchy.

So why should you stop contributing to the Wiki? I'm sure some sort of agreement/arrangement can be made that makes everybody happy and allows all willing to contribute to do so.

[UniMuta]

Hé em,

I try to look at the Wiki's "recent changes" list every day. It looks very impressive. This Wiki thing has potential.

I haven't contributed much, as I'm still adjusting to the environment. I'm used to work with listings: last name alphabetical ones, or chronological discographical ones... Not finding these reference points in the Wiki makes me a bit uncomfortable.
But i'm convinced that I'll get there. Sooner or later.

What I want to say is: appearantly, not everyone is going at the same speed. And you are going very (very!) fast. Great, 'cause the Wiki needs people that 'll get it rolling.

This does mean, however, that a lot of the topics that you throw on the table are way over the head of the common reader / possible contributor (like myself).
Does this scare possible contributors? Possibly.
Are these discussions necessary? Eventually, yes.
Is Barry exaggerating? Sure, but he wants to make a point.
Should you keep contributing to the wiki? Absolutely!

-- UniMuta

[Chris]

Barry is being honest with you and using direct language. He doesn't want to insult someone by being condescending. If you're a Zappa fan, you know the value of plain, direct English.

"If you won't listen to every word I say, I don't want to play" is not the attitude to take if you're part of a writing team. If you need complete attention and absolute control of every little thing, I advise that you stick to your original idea and write a book. The Wiki is living and breathing, and although your prodding started it, it will continue rolling successfully with or without you. It's your choice to take part and have some fun writing about the only truly great American composer who ever lived. Take a little while to think about it first. There's no time limit. Contribute whenever you like. But the selfish attitude has to stop. I say this in the most friendly tone possible.

[emdebe]

The Wiki is living and breathing, and although your prodding started it, it will continue rolling successfully with or without you.

I sincerely hope so, Chris, because it would not be a good thing if one person could stop the show.

[emdebe]

… your enthousiastic approach does scare people willing to contribute…

I don’t get it, Bobo, this really doesn’t make sense to me, at all. I would imagine that being enthusiast would inspire and encourage people to contribute, not scare them away.

[emdebe]

As for the Wiki initiative, this should be the effort of a team, working as a team discussing things by talking and listening to each other. In this kind of group efforts it is also very important not to press things and to stay focussed on what needs to be done. In this way everybody can keep up on how things are running. If not, the group effort turns into anarchy and expect for some good music in the eighties, not many creative things have come out of anarchy.

"If you won't listen to every word I say, I don't want to play" is not the attitude to take if you're part of a writing team. If you need complete attention and absolute control of every little thing, I advise that you stick to your original idea and write a book.

Let me remind you I was the first to take the stand for "collaboration".

And by the way, let us not forget: this discussion is NOT about "to Wiki or not to Wiki"... It's all about finding people (writers, editors, researchers, illustrators, ... whatever) who are motivated enough to spend a serious amount of their precious time to document the life and times of a single person... People who are willing to find a consensus about what to write and how to write it...

I was also the first to take the stand against "misbehavior".

Nice "consensus" we have here... That's exactly 2 people tellng all the rest to bugger off...

One of the nice things of a forum is that one can have his/her say… One of the problems is that one is not always heard… Or maybe they heard you then, but they forgot about it by now… And so misunderstandings, misinterpretations, etc. arise...

[emdebe]

…appearantly, not everyone is going at the same speed. And you are going very (very!) fast. Great, 'cause the Wiki needs people that 'll get it rolling. This does mean, however, that a lot of the topics that you throw on the table are way over the head of the common reader / possible contributor (like myself).

I was thinking about contributing but all the Wiki posts going from one end to the other just made it impossible to fully grasp what was going on. So I decide to wait until a more definitive Wiki structure would emerge.

The only thing that was really going on was (a few) people creating a lot of entries, which is kinda normal when you’re starting-up something, and everybody was/is still figuring out the best way to do it.

Moreover: pages were not just flying around… I (think) a had/have a plan in mind…

I also think the main structure is stabilizing right now, so if you focus on that, you should be able to get where you want to go (I hope)… I also hope that there will be other people watching over your shoulder to assist you with putting everything in it’s right little corner of the Wiki. It should be teamwork, right?

This forum, like probably any other, is attended by a large number of individuals with diverse backgrounds; each has his/her own level of expertise/interest on the topic or topics being discussed. This makes it very difficult to discuss issues in a manner meaningful to all the attendees.

[emdebe]

When things were not going his way, he started reacting in a similar manner as you did: he started ridiculing Barry and posting treathlike messages.

Look at it this way: how would you react when, after so many hours of enthusiastic contributing, the only thing you hear is “you scare the hell out of people”? Where’s the respect for the things being done?

By-the-way: I was not ridiculing Barry, and it was not (meant to be) a threat.

The point is: Barry has been jumping through hoops of real fire and right into my neck ever since we started the Wiki. More than once it seemed to me that this Wiki wasn’t big enough for the both of us.

But after all, when we look back, things were cooking and things did happen (in the positive sense).

[emdebe]

Is Barry exaggerating? Sure, but he wants to make a point.

Barry is being honest with you and using direct language. He doesn't want to insult someone by being condescending. If you're a Zappa fan, you know the value of plain, direct English.

When I posted my first message on the KUR Forum, it was also the first message I ever posted on any forum… No, I’m not coming from a retarded place, and I’m not retarded myself, thank you.

I don’t have any problems with being direct when you’re face-to-face to someone; I don’t have any problems with being direct “on-line” when you’ve met someone face-to-face before; things are a bit more complicated when two people are being direct when they have never met before.

In a face-to-face meeting speakers use a plethora of devices to augment what they are saying, i.e., body language (smiles, shrugs, hand motions), and tone of voice. These enable the speaker to communicate scathing sarcasm or take the sting out of a rebuttal to a previous comment. These devices are not exactly available when using a forum. Unfortunately "speakers" (people entering topics or replying to them) often forget that fact when they are typing that topic or reply. The result is that sarcasm has been taken as a completely serious comment and a simple rebuttal as a personal attack.

But, eventually, a sneer every now and then is no problem, if there is a sound balance between sneering and appreciation.

[emdebe]

But to be honest, these last posts give me a kinda deja vu feeling, I've seen posts with the same look and feel before from Isaac (no offence). Isaac is an old acquaintance of KUR. I guess that, just like you, Isaac is very knowledgable on Zappa but he is less a team player. When things were not going his way, he started reacting in a similar manner as you did: he started ridiculing Barry and posting treathlike messages. Why are people reacting like this, surely, those who do not agree on how people are trying to run things can try do make a better effort of their own on the web.

Maybe this is old hat to some/most of you, but the other day I came across Mike Reed’s "Flame Warriors" site - http://www.flamewarriors.com/ - sort-of a typology of chat room / bulletin board / newsgroup participants - with unflinching detail and very acute observation. It’s a rather funny site, IMHO that is. Definitely worth a visit.

After going through it, you’ll be back on the ground, with both feet (like I was, I must add, before anyone misunderstands this  ).

After going through it, I like to think of myself as NOT being a rude, crude, unsophisticated, ill-mannered, inbred, asocial, repulsive and smelly troglodyte...

[emdebe]

So why should you stop contributing to the Wiki? I'm sure some sort of agreement/arrangement can be made that makes everybody happy and allows all willing to contribute to do so.

It's your choice to take part and have some fun writing about the only truly great American composer who ever lived. Take a little while to think about it first. There's no time limit. Contribute whenever you like.

Should you keep contributing to the wiki? Absolutely!

I’m considering at least finishing what I’ve already started.

[Bobo]

…  your enthousiastic approach does scare people willing to contribute…

I don’t get it, Bobo, this really doesn’t make sense to me, at all. I would imagine that being enthusiast would inspire and encourage people to contribute, not scare them away.

Just to make things clear, I was not criticizing you or trying to push Barry's comment, I was just expressing a feeling.

To be honest, as things were progressing and turning into the start of this "It was fun for as long as it lasted" post, I got the feeling of: "why don't I wait until things cool down before I try something". That how I felt then and that how I feel now. Just my two cents...

[emdebe]

In case you missed this. It's from the "talk page" on the Biography section, from the man previously known as Duncan...


What belongs here?

Should we have musicians and recording session details in the biography when we have pages for all that stuff e.g...

c. August, 1962 PAL Recording Studio, Cucamonga, CA: Paul Buff (guitar, organ, drums, saxes), Dave Aerni (bass), Mike Dineri (sax), FZ (comb) - recorded Heavies (Aerni/Buff) (intro heard in Nasal Retentive Calliope Music) on We're Only In It For The Money) and The Cruncher (Aerni/Buff).

Can we check and resolve and/or explain variations in dates etc when adding to the wiki. e.g. The above biography listing gives 1962 but our pages for Heavies/The Cruncher (with no musicians listed) gives 1964.

Dunk 00:48, 11 Jun 2005 (PDT)


"Should we have musicians and recording session details in the biography"... No
"Can we check and resolve and/or explain variations in dates etc"... Yes

The Wiki way of working is not always, er, working... Someone puts something on a page, then someone else picks it up, cleans it up, extends it, and puts everything in the right place... We wish! So, probably we need to do it differently...

Emdebe 08:08, 11 Jun 2005 (PDT)


Resignation

Ok! I give up! Perhaps when Emdebe has decided just how he wants this wiki to be we lesser mortals might be able to come back to it and make some contributions but at the moment it is just too much hassle even trying to get some understanding of what he wants where and why.

Dunk 16:27, 11 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Dunk, what's got into you? I understood that you pointed out that the biography section was going the wrong way. I agreed, because it was actually going nowhere. So, I put its current content below ("scratchpad"), so we could restart the biography page from (almost) scratch. Nothing was deleted. Nobody got hurt. What's the problem?

emdebe 16:52, 11 Jun 2005 (PDT)


Apparently I did it again, although I don't know what I did (wrong)...

[Dunk]

Apparently I did it again, although I don't know what I did (wrong)...

It is not anything particularly wrong it is just you doing your thing which may not be aligned with everyone elses thing.  I decided to step back for awhile and, like other conrtibutors to the discussion above, to wait for things to settle down.

It seems to me that a Zappa wiki should primarily be focused on Zappa and yet you constantly cut and paste (from other peoples) articles with zero Zappa content even when there is an obvious Zappa link to the subject of the article.

You continue to, despite previous protests here, create articles with zero content other than a category or, even worse, a reference to the subject being mentioned in the index of The Real Frank Zappa Book.

Is the TRFZB of any great benefit as a source of information, or is it mere myth building; an exercise, to quote FZ from TRFZB , to "maintain the fiction"?

You unilaterally make arbitrary decisions that affect other peoples contributions without any discussion or, apparently, thought.

Feel free to cut and paste any of this into the trumpery that is your User Profile.