Unresolved issues: naming names...

[emdebe]

Writing a collaborative book on FZ is, in my opinion, close to impossible. It's my experience that each and every FZ fan has his/her own reason(s) for appreciating the man and the music, and more often than not, they differ greatly.

 

So, where are we now with the firstname lastname vs lastname firstname discussion?

Well have a look at the wiki! It's Firstname Lastname and if applicable Firstname "Nickname" Lastname. And I personally think it works well like that...

Some people like cupcakes better. I, for one, care less for them... It is not because YOU like something that everybody else is all singing and dancing... Personally, it think the Firstname Lastname paradigm sucks...

emdebe @ the Wiki (http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Talk:Album_Grouping): I'm in favor of the LASTNAME FIRSTNAME fans ...

... with PIPING, that is...

I think you're major concern is: how are we ever gonna make the switch? Perhaps it will be a painful exercise...

[Barry]

I think you're major concern is: how are we ever gonna make the switch? Perhaps it will be a painful exercise...

That's beside the discussion.

Once and for all (as I have been giving my arguments time and time again ad nauseam):

- The wiki is not a paper book. Therefore it is not linear and does not rely (primarily) on an index for navigation; it relies on links within articles and a search function for cohesion. It is a web-application with a Go/Search button (something a paper book does not have) which gets you where you want to be instantly.

- Using the Go-button: nobody in their right mind is going to type "Brock, Napoleon Murphy" into that Go-box. They will type "Napoleon Murphy Brock" (unless we are dealing with a librarian on his first day on the internet). Piping links would NOT solve this. If you are the kind of person that digs down to an index for any given subject you want to find at the wiki, then you are simply not using the wiki to its fullest potential. You are treating it like a directory which it is NOT.

- Looking at WikiPedia, the ultimate authority I think we agree, they actually go with Firstname Lastname. Type "Einstein, Albert" in the Go box and see what happens. You will end up at a page called "Albert Einstein" and underneath it, will be stated "Redirected from Einstein, Albert". "Einstein, Albert" is a redirect; "Albert Einstein" is the page that contains the article. "Oh, those idiots at Wikipedia!"?

Bottomline: I think, with all due respect, you're severely misguided in treating the wiki as a printed-on-paper work of reference. This is not the library, it's the web.

Think about it.

[sharleena]

When consulted the wikipedia, about alphabetical order, there's a paragraph to this cuestion:

Name/Surname ordering

The telephone directory example sheds light on another complication. In cultures where family names are written after given names, it is usually still desired to sort by family name first. In this case, names need to be reordered to be sorted properly. For example, Juan Hernandes and Brian O'Leary should be sorted as Hernandes, Juan and O'Leary, Brian even if they are not written this way. Capturing this rule in a computer collation algorithm is difficult, and simple attempts will necessarily fail. For example, unless the algorithm has at its disposal an extensive list of family names, there is no way to decide if "Gillian Lucille van der Waal" is "van der Waal, Gillian Lucille", "Waal, Gillian Lucille van der", or even "Lucille van der Waal, Gillian".

To me, as one who is not from the English speaking culture, it's not clear, for instance, if, in the name Napoleon Murphy Brock, the last name is "Murphy Brock" or just "Brock".  Even if i'm used to the librarian's system, if i don't find anything under "Murphy Brock, Napoleon" i'm gonna try under "Brock Napoleon Murphy". And if i don't find anything i'm gonna try "Napoleon Murphy Brock"... To me, and even for a person who is a non-computational person, it's a bless that i don't have to guess any of the above possibilities...putting the name the way it is, no guesses. I'm trying to tell I WILL FIND OUT, don't patronize me...

As for the directories, if the problem is the need of an alphabetical listing based on the last names of the persons, why not then to have  both, the manual and the automatic, like in the bandmembers categories? Seems to be a problem only in the case of personal names, no? (i mean, nobody is going to make a list in the bootlegs categories and put "Minchia Tanta Tengo Na", or   "Jemima Electric Aunt" ...)

[emdebe]

Personally, it think the Firstname Lastname paradigm sucks...

I could not agree more! And, I feel this is where Barry needs to adjust his thinking - ever so slightly.

You need to register to VOTE, SOFA...

[emdebe]

Once and for all (as I have been giving my arguments time and time again ad nauseam):  The wiki is not a paper book. Therefore it is not linear and does not rely (primarily) on an index for navigation; it relies on links within articles and a search function for cohesion. It is a web-application with a Go/Search button (something a paper book does not have) which gets you where you want to be instantly.

Let's not take the notion of a book (as in "Another Real Frank Zappa Book") to strict, let's think more "encyclopaedia"-wise (like Barry suggested). Let's jot down data, information, knowledge, and - perhaps - some wisdom, to the lowest detail possible. After that, many books can be written with the same pieces of text, according to one's taste... ;-)

If you look - encyclopaedia-wise - for FZ, you are going to start with the Z, not with the F...

[Barry]

If you look - encyclopaedia-wise - for FZ, you are going to start with the Z, not with the F...

... and you will find it there because there is a manually maintained TOC that works like that.

My gripe is not with the TOC's, they are useful. My gripe is with applying the Lastname Firstname paradigm to article-naming and article-editing. Though it works for TOC's, it becomes counter-intuitive for searching, naming pages and editing pages.

[emdebe]

There are 364 members in the Kur Forum and 31 registered users in the Wiki Jawaka... and what we have here is a whopping 4 (four!) votes...

As I said before: where are all the other Freaks & Motherf*#@%! when you need them?