Naming Stuff (The Re-Mix Revisted) Part 79

[Dunk]

Is it too late to object to the addition of (The Track) to songs that have been around since the beginning but now have to suffer this renaming indignity because someone lacked the imagination to think up a new name for their own third rate, rip off, lacking credibility, bootlegged album?

What about the Uncle Meat track on Yellow Shark that links to Uncle Meat(The Album) or should that be Uncle Meat (The CD) as it is not an album I recognise?

What about self referential tracks where the track has the same title as the album they are on?  You Are What You Is and Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar Some More spring to mind.
I am sure we could find much Zen enlightenment from such circular explorations but the Wiki won't like it.

[Barry]

Is it too late to object to the addition of (The Track) to songs that have been around since the beginning but now have to suffer this renaming indignity because someone lacked the imagination to think up a new name for their own third rate, rip off, lacking credibility, bootlegged album?

What about self referential tracks where the track has the same title as the album they are on?

Example: You Are What You Is is the name of both an album AND a track. How else, I ask will you make the distinction?

The only way I see fit is the way we're doing it now:
[[You Are What You Is]]
and
[[You Are What You Is (The Track)]]

If that really rubs you the wrong way, you can always go like this:
[[You Are What You Is (The Track) | You Are What You Is]] which will create a link to the text before the vertical line, while the linktext will SHOW the text to the right of the vertical line. It's called "a piped link".

What about the Uncle Meat track on Yellow Shark that links to Uncle Meat(The Album) or should that be Uncle Meat (The CD) as it is not an album I recognise?

As it's a work in progress, some people will make mistakes in editing. In this case, it should be [[Uncle Meat (The Track)]]. There is a reason for the edit link on that page, if you know what I mean.

(Note: In previewing this response, I noticed double square brackets get replaced by single square brackets for some reason)

[Dunk]

Yes the piped variation would be good.  The addition of the clumsy (The Track), to accommodate our rampant cutting and pasting shortcomings, should be invisible to the user who should be spared the tangle beneath the wiki's workings.

Yes I know what the edit tab is for but am often reluctant to use it because I fear I would be adding yet another layer of complexity (which would make sense to me) that would probably irritate others...

We currently have Any Way The Wind Blows(BTB), Any Way The Wind Blows(The Track), and a link from CWRATJ to Anyway The Wind Blows...

See also www.anywaythewindblows.com which has nothing to do with any of this

Should the Yellow Shark Uncle Meat track be linked to the Uncle Meat albums track/s or should it have it's own Variations on The Uncle Meat Variations?

We now have a category for bootlegs.  I assume this will be for all bootlegs.  Will we end up with albums with the same name but with variations in the tracks on each album and countless variations on tracks/personnel all listed under a single track title heading?




 

[Barry]

Yes the piped variation would be good.  The addition of the clumsy (The Track), to accommodate our rampant cutting and pasting shortcomings, should be invisible to the user who should be spared the tangle beneath the wiki's workings.

Yes and no. You're forgetting that any "visitor" is a potential "editor"... obfuscating the links like that may be confusing for anyone having to edit a page without knowing what a "piped link" is. On the other hand, yes, it's more pleasing to the eye, so I tend to make use of piped links in cases like this.

Yes I know what the edit tab is for but am often reluctant to use it because I fear I would be adding yet another layer of complexity (which would make sense to me) that would probably irritate others...

You'll be fine as long as you don't delete the main page

See also www.anywaythewindblows.com which has nothing to do with any of this

An excellent movie - I mean FILM! - it is though, and Belgian too.

Should the Yellow Shark Uncle Meat track be linked to the Uncle Meat albums track/s or should it have it's own Variations on The Uncle Meat Variations?

A Track page will list every version of a "song", or "piece". So "Uncle Meat (The Track)" will list all those versions - at least that's how I'd envisioned it.

We now have a category for bootlegs. I assume this will be for all bootlegs.

Well that's one of the reasons why I asked to stop creating categories for the time being (and I'd like to also ask not to add pages to the Bootlegs category for now as well). I simply haven't figured that one out just yet...

[emdebe]

And some more-a...

rdnZL: About "naming conventions", why does the article (a, an, the) belong at the end? There is an FZ song "The Dangerous Kitchen" but no "Dangerous Kitchen, The". And why are musicians' last names first? Wouldn't just MAKE FRICKIN' SENSE to put the musician name as it is. Do you think it's confusing to have it alpha'd by last name, but (oh no!) the last name's not first? With all this logic (including the topics of my post above), Zappa Frank came out with an album WHO KNOWS WHEN (but it starts with a "G" (excluding the article because it doesn't deserve to be first)[because the first letter of the first word of an album is really where it's at]) called Grand Wazoo, [the]. I'm not trying to harrass you guys, but I just don't see the logic in these decisions. I'm sticking to "FZ Lyrics & Else" if this doesn't change.

Duncan: You are right! I shall not rest until I have persuaded the telephone people to send me a big fat book in which everyone is listed by their first name. I shall insist that my local record store groups The Beatles, The Grateful Dead, The Rolling Stones and The Who etc. etc. together under T for The. In years to come our grandchildren will come across a list of great composers of the past; Beethoven will be under B and Mozart will be under M and Zappa will be under F. They might wonder if he had any children who recorded with him. Not knowing their names they would read through the long list of names to see if _______ Zappa comes up. When they eventually get to Moon they will have to keep reading the list just in case there are any more. This makes perfect frickin sense to me.

SOFA: The issue of "naming" at this point has two different "camps": the one that takes into consideration that this is a cyber-reference and so names should appear as read, because that is how they will be searched; and the one that really wants this info to be presented as a hard-copy reference found in a library... It seems quite apparent to me (and has from the start) that since we are creating a cyber-reference site, not a hard-copy reference, that all "titles" should appear as they would be read: first names first, articles in the front, etc. That's how your computer "reads" them and how it searches for them. Ex: ever notice the different results you get when you type "frank zappa" vs "zappa, frank" or "zappa frank" into google? You will find more and better referals with the first, than the second. Because that's how the cyber world works. But I'm just a slag, trying to do what Barry wants. I'm not really interested in shaping this wiki according to MY vision. I'll happily make it as difficult to use as Barry wants...

Duncan: Please ignore the big smug grin spreading across my ugly face :-) If you go to... http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Music/Bands_and_Artists/ Where are you going to look for Frank Zappa?

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.  ... http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Zappa_Wiki_Jawaka_talk:Community_Portal

You want some more-a? Well, here's some more-a... http://www.killuglyradio.com/hot-poop/2005/03/17/zappa-dweezil-and-naming-conventions
 
So, where are we now with the fistname lastname vs lastname firstname dicussion?

[Barry]

And some more-a...

So, where are we now with the fistname lastname vs lastname firstname dicussion?

Well have a look at the wiki! It's Firstname Lastname and if applicable Firstname "Nickname" Lastname.

And I personally think it works well like that:
- if I want to know which musicians played on Zoot Allures, I'm not going to go down the alphabetical Bandmembers list, I'll just type in Zoot Allures in the "Go" box, and get my information instantly;
- if I want to know who this Ian Underwood guy is, I'm not going to go to the alphabetical index, I'll just type in his name in the same "Go" box, and viola, there's my info.

The questions now are more along the lines of:
- how do we list lyrics
- do we list track-times in albumpages and trackpages, or only in the latter

"The Film" vs "The Video": I think we've agreed on naming it all "The Film", as the distinction is purely technical...

[Dunk]

I'm not going to go down the alphabetical Bandmembers list

But if you were to go to the Bandmembers list you will find them sorted by last name rather than first so Bruce Fowler sits in close proximity to Walt Fowler rather than dispersed to the opposite ends of the (original) list.

[Dunk]

You're forgetting that any "visitor" is a potential "editor"... obfuscating the links like that may be confusing for anyone having to edit a page without knowing what a "piped link" is.

So we should leave all wiki code littering the pages so that any future visitor/editor could pick them up without having to go and find out for themselves?

A Track page will list every version of a "song", or "piece". So "Uncle Meat (The Track)" will list all those versions - at least that's how I'd envisioned it.

Is it possible to set an anchor point on the Uncle Meat page so a link from any particular Uncle Meat track jumps directly to that particular section of the Uncle Meat page?

What about the album (Sleep Dirt?) that started life as an instrumental album but ended up having a vocal part added?

To quote Dweezil:

“The problem we will encounter is the way that Frank worked. He would often take stuff from alternated takes and build something out of it, and insert it into something else. That stuff is usually not documented"

If only FZ had been a wiki kind of guy...

[Barry]

But if you were to go to the Bandmembers list you will find them sorted by last name rather than first so Bruce Fowler sits in close proximity to Walt Fowler rather than dispersed to the opposite ends of the (original) list.

Which is why we're keeping SOFA's manually compiled list on top of the automatically generated index. SOFA's very much on top of this category (heck, he's compiled it for 99%), and will continue to keep an eye on it.

[Barry]

So we should leave all wiki code littering the pages so that any future visitor/editor could pick them up without having to go and find out for themselves?

Didn't say that. My response was a statement of fact, not one of preference I use the piped link style myself, don't mind if anyone else does - in cases where it's appropriate (the whole "(The Track)" thing). A piped wiki-link like this doesn't make much sense: [[The Mothers | The Mothers]] (just an example).

Is it possible to set an anchor point on the Uncle Meat page so a link from any particular Uncle Meat track jumps directly to that particular section of the Uncle Meat page?

That should be possible... I'll have to dig through WikiPedia's Help pages to find out.

What about the album (Sleep Dirt?) that started life as an instrumental album but ended up having a vocal part added?

There's a "Versions" section to each Album page. As for listing lyrics, I suppose in this case we'd have to preface them with a note saying this is from the "vocalized" version of the album.

[Barry]

Is it possible to set an anchor point on the Uncle Meat page so a link from any particular Uncle Meat track jumps directly to that particular section of the Uncle Meat page?

Update: Turns out it's trivial. Just do something like this:

[[Uncle_Meat#Versions | Your Link Text Here]]

...which will link to the "Versions" section of the "Uncle Meat" page, while the link's text will obviously display "Your Link Text Here".