Friday Boot Vines?

[Barry]

Those who read HotPoop on a regular basis may have read this Friday Boot post:
http://www.killuglyradio.com/hotpoop/archives/001914.php
The post in itself is irrelevant though, what brings me to mention it here is a comment made there by Al Stone, that goes:

It shouldn’t be to hard for us to organise into local or regional groups so that we don’t duplicate downloads. If you had an area on the site where we could post locations and a contact email then we could either pre-arrange for just one person to download your offering and then burn a cd to pass or post to the next person, who can make a copy and pass it on etc. Alternatively, when your bandwidth limit is reached and you take the boot down, people who missed it can contact someone on the list, send a blank cd and get a copy.

See, now there's an idea that DOES have commercial potential! However, the practical execution begs for some discussion. I had envisioned it to work something like this:
- I post a boot on KUR which anyone can download;
- at the same time, I provide a page on KUR which lists adress information of people willing to spread the boot (I'll call them VineKeepers from now on);
- a mailing list notifies Vine recipients of new boots, and sets out the itinerary (the "from to" trajectory that a given boot will take, snail mail wise);
- the VineKeepers are at the source of spreading the boot via snail mail; since they are up first in the vine, the next recipient must send back to them blank discs (or, possibly, other boots - the VineKeepers have a prerogative here);
- and so the boot gets spreaded, to those that are unable to download it for some reason.

The prerequisite for this of course is: we need to have  a sufficient amount of VineKeepers, at various locations throughout -erh- the world! At present, we have Al Stone (UK) and LunchMeat (US) saying they'd be willing to act as VineKeeper. That's way cool, but not enough.

So. A couple of questions:
- Any practical thoughts on how you think the Vines should work?
- Anyone willing to act as VineKeeper?
- How many of you would be interested to receive boots via this system? In other words, is there sufficient need out there for us to get this whole thing going?

Feel free to post your thoughts/comments/questions!

[AlStone]

The procedure that Barry has so eloquently described above is pretty much what I had in mind. I like the vine analogy, and if this list makes it possible to occasionally meet up with a few fellow FZ appreciators at a convenient drinking hole, pass on discs in person and sample fruits of the vine (or the hop, or the grain), then so much the better.

I'm sure that there are some others out there who can help refine the idea even further so keep those brains ticking over.

[SOFA]

Vines are a cool thing. We've been doing the same at the Zappa-List...
A couple of thoughts:
1) You mentioned "blanks", or boots, in return; this is something we don't do. I mean, who sends blanks and who doesn't? If everyone in the vine sends a blank back to the "vinemeister" (Zappa-List term), well that's okay I guess. It will ceratinly compensate the vinemeister for the hassle of arranging things (and trust me, it's a hassle). If only the second person on the list sends a blank to the vinemeister, then the distribution isn't exactly fair. The vines we hold, folks take turns being first - usually the last person on the vine starts the next, because the last person simply keeps the masters, and doesn't have to mail anything on... However you want to work it is fine, but in our case a person on the vine receives a master of the boot, makes a copy, and sends it on to the next person.
2) Vinemeisters (and, sorry Barry, I can't volunteer at this time. Hell, I don't even run the one at the List!): it's a little bit more than figuring the logistics; there's a certain amount of "tracking" involved - to make sure that the disk(s) don't get lost, and communicating - when they do (which they will). Doing this on a weekly basis is going to require some stamina. If you get a vine with - say - 15 people, and it takes an average of 4 - 5 days per person (snail-mail, remember?) to complete - and that's if everyone copies and passes on in a timely manner, then you've got almost 2 months of tracking to do per vine; and you wanna do that once a week? THAT'S Stamina!
The answer (for both points, I suppose) would appear to be a dependable set of rotating vinemeisters. The more vinemeisters you have the more efficient the operation, but the more you'd also need to co-ordinate the activities of the vinemeisters...
You'd need a vinefuhrer, if you will.
With a vinefuhrer, KUR would send a master copy to him/her (disks ultimately paid for from the PayPal acct?) and he/she would ensure that the vinemeisters received masters of that to start their vines...
Dunno if any of this helps ya, but I'm trying to share some recent experience.
Good Luck! Vines are very cool! (When they work)
SOFA

[Lunchmeat]

I should make this known, and I didn't mean to misrepresent myself regarding this "burning subject" but I do not have the means to download these boots as my cd burner is a stand-alone unit.  I am very willing to make copies of FZ boots in this manner and mail them to recipients in the U.S. but I myself would need to be provided with a master copy.  Blank cdrs are way cheap these days, what, about 30 cents each?  So on a monetary perception, if I were to make 5 copies of a boot I am out $1.50 plus postage...a small price to pay for a recorded show!  So, are there others out there with stand-alone burners?  I still hope this can go somewhere and that I can be of some help!

[Kookamonga]

I listen to a lot of Grateful Dead and related music and I've found that the Dead community has this vine thing figured out. When I first started trading shows, the vines allowed me to build a pretty impressive collection.

The way most of the vining in Deadland works is that you have a messageboard, much like this one. Someone vines a show they have by listing the show and people who wish to participate simply add their email addy to the list. It is the responsibility of the person who recieves the discs to email the next person on the list and get a snail mail addy. They then copy the source discs and send to the next guy. ANother benifit is that people can update the list when they have the discs and when they mail them off, letting people further down on the list estimate when they'll be next.

I've seen vines last for MONTHS. I have a couple of Zappa gems I could vine if you get it going. One suggestion is that you guys vine shows that are compressed with Shorten (shn) or FLAC compression which is lossless. If your vining instead of putting them on your server, the size benifits of MP3 become meaningless compared to the sound quality.

Been a long time reader of KUR, and I tip my hat to Barry for the entertaining site he has created here.

[handlebarjohnny]

i would love to participate, but am not web savvy to do the tech stuff.  i have a few shows and would obviously love more.  maybe we start this thing off in baby steps.

[Barry]

Thanks to all who have commented so far.
I think the suggestion made by Kooka (open a forum for the vines, have people communicate about the boots from there) is a very valid one. But of course, once again, before we go down that road, I'd have to be sure that there is sufficient interest for this kind of trade. I have to say I'm a little surprized at the lack of interest so far. Judging from the amount of feedback (or rather: lack thereof) so far, you'd think that the only people visiting KUR are those with fast adsl/cable connections. If that's really the case, then we shouldn't be bothering with this idea any longer. However, I'm pretty sure that there's people out there with a shitty dial up connection waiting for something like this (our idea) to happen.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

Sorry there, folks.  I've been lurking lately.  I meant to mention earlier that I also am interested in this Vine thang, but things got busy.  I can toast copies of CDs, no problem.  I'm not sure if I can dedicate time to it every week, but gosh darn it, I'd TRY to make ya happy!

I've waited ALL MY LIFE for this moment! My heart is fluttering! If only I could submit myself on approval, for a limited time only . . . to . . . to that nasty little rubber VINEMEISTER on your knee . . .

Seriously, I'd love to take part in this.  I'm located in Germany.  I personally have no internet connection myself, so I must rely on the connection at work, at a friend's place or internet café in order to correspond.  That's right, I don't even have a shitty dial-up connection; I have to envy yours.  This method of "spreading the wealth" would be beneficial to me.  Barry, let me know the deal; I'm there!

[Noolie]

Barry:
Count me in on the ripping of cd's.  I have the capabilities to do this, but need clarification once the process begins.  I have already accumulated some boots from friends on-line and would be willing to share.

[Kookamonga]

Here's a link to a list of vines. Sign up for a few and try it! They kind of take care of themselves as long as people burn and turn within a couple days of recieving the discs. Even if someone does keep the discs, nobody is really out more than a couple blanks and less than a buck postage.

http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/7473/7473.html?1071956530

[Barry]

Rrrrright then! What do you say I open up a new messageboard here, dedicated to Friday Boots? That way we take a tranquille start and give it some time to grow. One important note: I'm not going to have time to regulate these things practically, but I'm hoping it will sort of regulate itself. And before I go ahead, I'd have to have a good name for the board... any suggestions?

[SOFA]

And before I go ahead, I'd have to have a good name for the board... any suggestions?

How about "Uncle Beat"?
SOFA

[Dunk]

It will be interesting to see how this works out as I am still not sure just what is being suggested here.

Are we talking about a disc exchange vine which seems to be what the one Kookamonga suggested at...
http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/7473/7473.html?1071956530
is.

Or are we going for quality of sound (Shorten), but huge size, which people with fast connections can download, like at...
http://www.etree.org/index.html
and then pass on copies on disc to those of us with a slow steam powered dial-up connection.

Or are we just talking about the regular Friday mp3 deal but made available on disc for those who can't get it otherwise.
If so would the size of mp3s permit about a months worth of Fridays to be gathered on a single disc?

Some collectors frown on the distribution of mp3s on disc as noted at...
http://www.u2shn.com/shnfaq.php

Having waited decades for a chance to hear some of this stuff a few hours spent downloading seems a small price to pay in whatever format it comes, but can I plea for the file size to be listed with the Friday track titles so that we lowly dial-up people have some idea what we are taking on before we start.

[Barry]

Hi Dunk, thanks for the interest you're expressing in this thing!

Are we talking about a disc exchange vine which seems to be what the one Kookamonga suggested at...
http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/7473/7473.html?1071956530
is.

Actually yes, I've taken a look at the above link and that's pretty much what I had in mind. At first I was looking at getting the weekly Friday Boots (offered at Hot Poop) spreaded via a vine system, but obviously it can and should be expanded so anyone can start a vine, as long as they have signed up for the board.

Or are we going for quality of sound (Shorten), but huge size, which people with fast connections can download, like at...
http://www.etree.org/index.html
and then pass on copies on disc to those of us with a slow steam powered dial-up connection.

I don't have enough space on my server to offer shn's. I know there's frowning upon mp3 in certain circles but that's the best I can offer. That doesn't prevent though that other boardmembers can (and are encouraged to) offer shn-files.

Or are we just talking about the regular Friday mp3 deal but made available on disc for those who can't get it otherwise.
If so would the size of mp3s permit about a months worth of Fridays to be gathered on a single disc?

You can mostly get 4 shows on one disc in mp3-format, sure. But: I wouldn't be taking care of "the master-disc" - I really have too much other stuff to attend to (like posting silly links on HotPoop hehe). I'm sure there's others who wouldn't mind making and distributing the masters for the Friday Boots (see the comments above).

Some collectors frown on the distribution of mp3s on disc as noted at...
http://www.u2shn.com/shnfaq.php

I'm no shn fetishist. If we can get something distributed in shn, fine, if not: no biggie.

Having waited decades for a chance to hear some of this stuff a few hours spent downloading seems a small price to pay in whatever format it comes, but can I plea for the file size to be listed with the Friday track titles so that we lowly dial-up people have some idea what we are taking on before we start.

I had never considered this before but it's a very valid point, duly noted. Watch out for the next Friday Boot...  

[Barry]

Okay guys, we now have a new board dedicated to vines, by the name of "Uncle Beat" (thanks SOFA for the name!) Check it out here!