A discussion of FRAUD - and what about Bob?

[SOFA]

This is a discussion that started in the Hot Poop blog. It was gathering a bit of momentum, when Barry suggested that we 'take it outside' - or he was going to turn this group around and NO ONE would get to discuss it.
So without Bob's permission, I've transferred this discussion to a more Barry-friendly forum (twice actually; I slaved over this fucker for an hour, hit post, and was told that the post was "too long". I almost didn't bother to do it again). Here is the thread as it stands now (additional thoughts/comments are welcomed):

I had to read the barfko-swill message a couple times, but still don't get it. What are they talking about with the "your name here" album credits? Are they really saying they won't ship until they have 5,000 orders? Why don't they just say that? Given the way they do business, I'd think they would misplace a few orders before they reach the magical 5,000. Yes, music is the best - playing games with unreleased music just f---ing sucks!
OK, call me slow, but I figured it out. Guarantee sales of $150,000, and ZFT will do the project. My question again, why the fuck don't they just say that instead of dicking people around? This may never see the light of day...
Bob

Comment Bob: why do i get the feeling bob@blob.net is not a valid email adress? Aside from that: why do you get the feeling this may never see the light of day?
Barry

I don't wanna write to Bob. He has a bad attitude.
"Sure your angry. And it's okay to BE angry." (insert Mr. Rodgers theme here)
Get over it, Bob. Order the disk - you know you want it. And kwitcher bitchin about why and how this coveted "new" release came about!
If I were the gift horse, I'd bite you one for sure...
SOFA

Continued...

[SOFA]

...continued

bad attitude or no...
Boys and Girls, I think Frank would tell you there is a five letter word for taking orders for a product that doesn't exist (clues: no picture, no dates, no song titles, no details), count them, F R A U D.

I hardly doubt the the Zappa family would participate in a so-called "fraud". I'll laugh to see my name in the cd and not yours, Bob.
Eric

Hello again, Boys and Girls -
To answer your questions/comments regarding my skepticism - look at the history of Zappa enterprises. Going back to the Cucamonga days, Frank, associates, family have had many creative schemes for raising funds - some successful, some not (some honorable, some not). Taking history into account, I view this FZ Downunder episode as Fundraising Phaze 2002. I am not so naive as to believe they can produce an album of vaulted material without first securing financing. I just don't believe they are being completely honest with their fan (customer) base. Again, I think there is some history to take into account.
I, like many others, look forward to the release of more of Frank's music from the vaults. I don't want to get tricked into an "IPO" based solely on the promise of my name on some imaginary album credits. Who gives a fuck anyway, as the man would say, if they print 5,000 names on a CD jacket. Think about it for a minute, the font size will have to be microscopic. Laugh when you don't see my name - I'll laugh when you need a microscope to find yours.
I'll be watching for word in "4-8 weeks" as you should be receiving the promised package, unless there should be some sort of unforeseen hitch....
Bob

Continued...

[SOFA]

...continued

Okay, Bob - that argument I can relate to. You've made some very valid points.
Let's not forget, "we're only in it for the money". No one ever accused FZ, or the ZFT, of altruism. So I'm with ya on the history of their fundraising.
Here's my take - 'historically': The vault contains a lot of stuff. Frank was only finished with a small amount of it when he died. So for whatever reason, the bulk of the stuff in the vault has to be edited somehow. I think the biggest mistake Gail ever made was letting Spencer Chrislu go. He was the one best able to work on vault stuff.
Okay, so Spencer is gone. What's ready? Well, mostly synclavier and classical works - that was what FZ was focusing on when he passed. So we get CP3, the Yellow Shark, and EIHN; Dweez puts out FZ Plays FZ. Other than retreads, that's what we've gotten. Why? Because that stuff was ready, the rest was not, and there was no one available to work on any more stuff...
But there's a million, talented engineers out there, all capable of working on that stuff!
I don't think so. I mean, that stuff is in the vault for a reason - and FZ probably took that reason with him. I think it requires a VERY special person to do the job right.
(with me bro?)
Okay. FZ was very unique amongst modern musicians/composers because he owned the rights to all of his stuff. I think the ZFT is honestly looking out for the man's legacy by being ultra selective about what gets released. Consider the "Hendrix" legacy...
Personally, I'd rather weather the disappointments, the missed deadlines, and put my money where my mouth is with a "pro-order" for new product, than go out and dutifully buy the latest slag from a record company who really doesn't give a shit. I'm thankful that they're being selective.
As far as the pre-order is concerned, I believe the FRAUD comes in if there is no product intended for delivery. I believe there is a product. My own copy may not be made yet, but I believe there is a master to create copies from. That's the line I draw for fraud...
I'm willing to bet that the sales of the aforementioned disks did not come near what was anticipated. This 'pre-order' deal would answer that problem.
Now you may well be right. I may never receive this new issue (and who gives a shit about the cover, any way), I may end up paying the interest on the card for the next 20 years, I may wind up not liking the release (if it ever does come) for a number of reasons.
But I believe...
SOFA

[SOFA]

...continued

Yes, I think we really are saying the same things, except on the matter of pre-ordering. You will pre-order. I will not. I need something more than a product that exists in someone's imagination before I will order (pre- or otherwise).
I will stop now, before I hurt my throat.
Bob

um... guys: this would've made some excellent posts for the KillUglyRadio forums (as opposed to this measly comment thingee)... Why don't you register there, Bob, and start posting?
Barry

End of copied thread

Yes, Bob; please do. This is fun...
Until Bob gets here, I'd like to add a couple more thoughts...
Okay, so Spencer is gone. What's ready?
Anybody know who did the mastering? (I realize that actual data on this project has been severely limited.) I also have a strong hunch that this stuff didn't need to be 'fixed' too much. But someone's digging in the vault... I think that's a positive sign.
I truly appreciate Bob's base position: This whole episode has sucked. Anyone reading this has surely felt anger over the way the ZFT has behaved for the last 6+ years. Why would anyone in their right mind, commit to something that they aren't honestly sure will happen?
I think the answer lies in the word Fan. It's derived from fanatic, which means "not of right mind". I'm nuts; I pre-ordered.
I've no clue, but I think this is a kind of experiment to see if this new "label" will work. And I'm for it!
Jeez, we've waited long enough...
SOFA

[whatchamacallit]

good idae to put this this here...

i guess i wouldn't start a project without having secured the money. but i also agree that they should behave openly.

i don't know much about the new release, i just know that it's way to expensive to buy. i am from gemany and would have to pay an enormous amount of bucks.

thats what you get when you are a fan of an artist, who is not suckling major-label dork. so i wait and see what happens. haven't talked to anyone in LA or at ICA for a while, so i have no clue.
but it would be wicked if i could just go to a store and buy that album, wouldn't i`? why make everything so complicated? and what about franks idea of 'telephone publishing'? why don't they distribute digitally with a decent quality? you pay by credit card, then they send you a code, you download the 140 mins. end of story.

why don't they invest in that? would that be phase one of the vault-jukebox?

[Kill Ugly Radio]

the telephone publishing is a good idea; but probably not very profitable as long as ADSL and cable are not widely spread. Imagine sitting there with your dorky 28k modem downloading 140 min's of music, heh..

About the release: from what I've read, this is not an album that we'll ever see in the shops in Europe (see FZ plays FZ and EIHN, ...). It's a commercial decision that I, as a european, also deplore. Buying the stuff overseas via Barfko-Swill costs fortunes. Even then: they have to have the willingness to accept foreign credit-cards! Ahem, but that's a whole other issue...

As for this whole "fraud" discussion: I thought they could've at least given us a tracklist and a picture of the cover...

[SOFA]

About the release: from what I've read, this is not an album that we'll ever see in the shops in Europe (see FZ plays FZ and EIHN, ...). It's a commercial decision that I, as a european, also deplore. Buying the stuff overseas via Barfko-Swill costs fortunes. Even then: they have to have the willingness to accept foreign credit-cards! Ahem, but that's a whole other issue...
I read somewhere, another list I believe, that G&S music will handle (I assume this means a bulk order?) the disk in Europe. Of course, that doesn't mean you still won't pay a small fortune for it... (Their site: http://www.gandsmusic.com/ )
I can't say too much about the credit card debacle you experienced - tho' with 17 disks coming, you could be the Euro-connection   But other European cards have worked...
As for this whole "fraud" discussion: I thought they could've at least given us a tracklist and a picture of the cover...
That's a tough one to justify... Piracy concerns maybe? I dunno.
SOFA

[Barry]

Per your request, SOFA, I'm going to repost what I posted on Hot Poop. But first, I'll say why I posted it there in the first place:
This post was not ment for discussion; it was ment to be informative. If people run the risk of having their creditcards overcharged when ordering at barfko-swill, I think they have a right to know. A lot more people read HotPoop than the forums, so that's why I posted it there.

HotPoop entry:
» 7:06 PM
I'm going to vent here, so make way.
As a loyal Zappa fan, I was being all excited over the new FZ release, "Frank Zappa In Australia". Pre-ordering was going to start last monday. So on tuesday, I went over to Barfko Swill and filled out the form in order to place my order. I got an error from the form at each time I tried to submit it - I retried 16 times. "CVV2 number wrong", "Duplicate Order", you name it. Never did i receive an order confirmation. The day after, I got a call from my bank asking me if it was normal that "a certain amount had been withdrawn from my Visa credit card 17 times". You guessed it: each time I got an error message, the amount had been taken from my Visa card. I've sent two e-mails to barfko.swill@zappa.com asking them to rectify this; no response yet. I'm facing having to pay for 17 copies of "FZ in Australia".
With all due respect to the ZFT: that pre-ordering form does not work properly to say the least; and you have your webmaster to blaim for it. I will not pay for 17 copies because some shmuck of a would-be webmaster is fucking things up. Oh, and hey? This is my first and last barfkoswill purchase ever.
Thank you. I feel better now.

[sharleena]

Per your request, SOFA, I'm going to repost what I posted on Hot Poop. But first, I'll say why I posted it there in the first place:
This post was not ment for discussion; it was ment to be informative. If people run the risk of having their creditcards overcharged when ordering at barfko-swill, I think they have a right to know. A lot more people read HotPoop than the forums, so that's why I posted it there.

My two cents on the Barfko affair:
I don't think we are discussing here FRAUD. I don't think that's the situation, i mean they are gathering the money to give people nothing. That's not their intention imo. But: they have serious flaws in that order page.
I won't say "don't buy the disc". No! But if the Barfko guys have put an imbecile doing their orders page, i think everybody should know, to avoid any risks. I believe that was the spirit on Barry's post...
It always looks like if they'd want to make things dificult...what leads me to think if that couldn't be a marketing strategy too...But doing this on the purpose? I hope this is not the case, but just a bad election on their webmaster...
May be the peace, pals...You are too cool to be angry...

[Top Cat]

I don't think we are discussing here FRAUD. I don't think that's the situation, i mean they are gathering the money to give people nothing. That's not their intention imo. But: they have serious flaws in that order page.

OK, so what do you call it then?  I mean, hey, call be dumb or something, but I think a previous caller hit it on the bazouki when he said that Uncle Frank would have been right on in there with a good old cynical jibe.

Me, I'd love more details first.  Having been burnt in the past, I don't go throwing my cashish around at just any old whim...

Wiser than thou? TC '..'

[SOFA]

OK, so what do you call it then?  I mean, hey, call be dumb or something, but I think a previous caller hit it on the bazouki when he said that Uncle Frank would have been right on in there with a good old cynical jibe.
I call it new, different, unique, puzzling, aggravating - but I don't call it fraud.
Me, I'd love more details first.  Having been burnt in the past, I don't go throwing my cashish around at just any old whim...
The only times I've ever been burned on Zappa product is by unscrupulous fucks selling their home-made, pirated shit on eBay. I've made numerous purchases from Barfko Swill over the years, starting in 1981 with the SU&PYG box set on vinyl. I've had a problem or two - mostly with how the order gets made, but Barfko has always made it right with me. I wonder how many of the negative comments have been made by people who have "actually been burned" by Barfko? If any, I'd like to know how they were "burned"...
Sorry, but the whole business seems to be an "aversion to change" to me...
[color=Red]Wiser than Thou?
The problem with having the last laugh is that you have to wait to make sure that you're last.
Wiser than that?
SOFA
PS And while I'm here:i guess i wouldn't start a project without having secured the money. but i also agree that they should behave openly.
Aren't you the guy presently "canvassing" for funds for a production of ThingFish? I find that a bit incongruous with your above remark...

[Top Cat]

The problem with having the last laugh is that you have to wait to make sure that you're last.
Wiser than that?

Ah, well, maybe you got me there...

TC '..'

[Bob Again]

Please see my comments added this day to "downunder release news blah, blah, blah".  More further son of random thoughts:

1.  Has anyone tried to see how easy it will be to obtain a refund from the ZFT "escrow" yet?

2.  How much has the "escrow" account earned?  Who receives the interest on the account?

3.  If this project fails, what will become of Joe Travers?

[Debrakadabra]

Please see my comments added this day to "downunder release news blah, blah, blah".

Where are your comments?  
They are not on Hot Poop....Are they on another list?

1.  Has anyone tried to see how easy it will be to obtain a refund from the ZFT "escrow" yet?
2.  How much has the "escrow" account earned?  Who receives the interest on the account?

My understanding of escrow is that the money is held in an account that is separate from the company's funds so they will not be able to make use of it until they send the product or refund the money.  This is intended to reassure customers that they will not profit from the preorders, not to say they are going to hang onto the money and not refund it.  It is also a protection against being accused of fraud.  How hard would it be to get a refund?  I don't know, having never ordered from Barfko Swill.

3.  If this project fails, what will become of Joe Travers?

Who cares?

I am not defending ZFT for what they have done.  I am still depressed about how they do business, but I felt this needed to be clarified.

BTW, Barry, did you ever get your credit card straightened out about the 17 orders?

DebK

[Barry]

BTW, Barry, did you ever get your credit card straightened out about the 17 orders?

Well, I didn't get an order confirmation, nor did I get the "delay"-email from zappa.com either by the way. However, my bank did call me at the time asking me if it was really my intention to buy 17 copies of FZ in Oz; which means the money was being transferred. So in turn, I told the bank, that I only wanted the amount of ONE CD+shipment being paid for, if it ever comes to that.
So I'm just watching and I'm waiting... for all I know, I'm not even going to receive anything.