Suicide Chump

[guacamole]

I find it hard to accept that a ten year old whose friend committs suicide under the circumstances that you describe Chris would conclude,amongst the grief, that she was a weak and pathetic person.
Whilst I do work in a psychiatric profession I am no great defender of a lot of what goes on in the name of it - there are people in all walks of life who are charlatans, just out for what they can get for themselves and don't really have a care in the world for anyone apart from themselves.
As to whether education in the matter is academic or empirical experience from whatever sources (or both),
what does it matter?.
I have no experience of hypnosis being used in this country in psychiatry (in fact I'm sure it's prohibited by law).
I think it can be used here in place of anaesthesia in dentistry though.
From a sociological viewpoint (seeing as psychiatry is a sore point) Emile Durkheim formulated a theory in the late 1800's
which distinguished four principle types of suicide;
Anomic - where society is unable to integrate the individual due to inherent failures in the structure of society.
Egoistic - the individual is subject to personal isolation, lacking any ties to community/society.
Altruistic - the individual is so highly integrated into society that suicide is viewed as an honourable act.
and
Fatalistic - where suicide occurs under conditions of excessive regulation as found in certain "total institutions"
such as prisons/armed forces/boarding schools etc.

As with many theories, it doesn't quite seem to cover all the bases - to expand upon Noolies point - what for example, of the person with a terminal illness,who is suffering pain, making the rational decision that their continued existence and suffering could only lead to prolonged suffering for family and friends?
Is that a "weakness" of character ?
Is being selfless "weak"?

Chris, don't get me wrong, you are of course entitled to your own opinion and the scenarios which you personally experienced and described in your post are tragic - it's just that I don't understand how you arrive at your end viewpoint.

As to my feeling offended, don't worry about it, there are many things going on in the world which I am proud to be offended at.

[guacamole]

I always end up posting stuff and then later remembering that there was more I wanted to say

I'm no great fan of organised religion so don't expect me to defend it, Chris' statement that "Tibetan monks are out of their minds" seems a bit harsh though.
If one good thing can be said about Buddhism then I think it's that there has never been a war fought in the name of Buddha.

LCS - your post earlier about Kurt Cobain being "a jerk" also strikes me as being a bit harsh.
(sorry, I don't know how to do that thing where you can lift quotes out of other posts).
I don't know a great deal about Kurt Cobain and haven't listened to much of Nirvanas music, but what I do know about him, please correct me if I'm wrong, is that his childhood wasn't particularly happy, he had difficulties throughout his childhood and teenage years, his parents divorced when he was about 8yrs old, he suffered from chronic stomach pain and severe depression which was not amenable to treatment, he had a "stormy" relationship with his wife, they both had a significant drug problem - to the extent that their child was taken into care (albeit briefly), he suffered from suicidal preoccupations and spoke openly about these, he had at least one known attempted suicide, he had acces to firearms, and he was relatively young (27 I think) when he killed himself.
Sure on the face of it he was successful, a pioneer in his field, widely acclaimed and financially wealthy.
It's what's underneath all that that counts however and he appears to have been a desperately unhappy young man.

[Barry]

On the topic of Cobain: with his past, and his mentality, he was a disaster waiting to happen.
I can still recall the thrill  I felt when I first heard "Bleach" - to me at the time (I was about 19 when they did their european tour on the eve of worldwide success) Nirvana was immensely refreshing. I loved their fuck-all attitude. They broke through at a time when the Whitney Houstons and what have you's were ruling the charts. They were to the nineties what punk was to the seventies.
What I find almost perverse is how Cobain's downfall was caused by the fact that he was embraced by the "mainstream" against which he had made it his solemn duty to agitate. Nirvana's world wide success was pushed and propagated by the very machinery Cobain had set out to crucify from the very beginning. To be marketed, recuperated, sold out, by the very industry you act against, that must be one hell of a nightmare. And I think that was the first time this happened. In a way, Nirvana's downfall marked the end of true counter culture. Since Cobain's suicide, we've had nothing but designer counter culture, carefully catering to carefully researched pseudo sub-cultures. There are no longer any truly opposing, truly original voices. There is but drivel, and young talent waiting to be sucked up by the above mentioned machinery, in order to become drivel. "I'm the slime..."

I feel better now! Here endeth a very off topic statement...  

[Chris]

Noolie: LOL...no problem! We are, after all, all Zappa people.

Guacamole: Understood. Perhaps I should give such touchy things a bit more thought before I write such sweeping generalizations.

Barry: I agree with every single word in your post. (That rarely happens with me, so I have to point it out when it does.  )

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

Hi, guys.  It's me again.

(Kurt Cobain's) childhood wasn't particularly happy, he had difficulties throughout his childhood and teenage years, his parents divorced when he was about 8yrs old, he suffered from chronic stomach pain and severe depression.... to firearms, and he was relatively young (27 I think) when he killed himself.

Nobody promised anybody else a rose garden!  Okay, where's my soapbox?  My experiences with life haven't been particularly fantastic either.  My parents divorced when I was nine.  In those days they developed a curious habit of using me and my brother as pawns in their game for control.

I had serious problems with my digestive tract most of my childhood, which later manifested itself as a lymphoma (cancer) of the large intestine.  After dealing with military quacks that call themselves physicians trying to imply that I had nothing serious and was overreacting, I finally had an operation (50 cm worth of  intestine), which was immediately followed by 8 months on intensive chemotherapy.  I was fifteen then.  To this day I still have some problems with the ol' poop chute.

Sometimes I too suffer from the swirling black vortex that is depression.  I too have had dismal thoughts of shuffling off the mortal coil, but after a bit of mulling about, and a little guitar pickin' I pull myself out of it, thank you very much.  Maybe I'm not a severe case, but if you've ever been deep down in there, you'd understand that severity has no meaning in the hole.  Everything is just as severe as everything else.

One thing I know for sure.  If such a person (like Cobain) has a history of suicidal preoccupations and attempts, and when he / she speaks of it, knows exactly how he / she would carry out the act, then time is running short.  The person in question is in need of help URGENTLY, and it seems to me that Cobain's needs were either neglected or not correctly understood.

Nevertheless, I still think the guy wallowed in self pity.

[Chris]

Well, the guy was on heroin. That tends to skew one's outlook. I never said I respected him. I sure did love his songs, though.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

What I find almost perverse is how Cobain's downfall was caused by the fact that he was embraced by the "mainstream" ......There are no longer any truly opposing, truly original voices.

Hi, Barry.  Hope everything is healing nicely.

I'm of the opinion that the record industry (and the media in general) has been at it for longer.  Think about the obsessive quest for brand new dances in the 50's.  I don't even believe that a true counter culture ever really existed.  It was helped along the way.  Sure, I believe that real hippies existed, but most of them were of the phony sort, and these are just the kind of people the media need.  Any time the media maggots catch on to some new fad that's worthwhile, they capitalize on it.  It is a very calculated strategic game.  A trend starts regionally, but will not necessarily grow to something larger without the help from the media.  Once they find something appropriate, deals are made to determine who will provide the official accessories and uniforms for the brand spanking new counter culture.  There is a fucking LOT of money to be made, so they choose carefully.

FZ was the exception, and was just too good to be ignored.  Back in those days, there were still some record guys that would take chances, and sign a unique act.  Naturally, they (the media pricks) realized he (Zappa) was not a pushover, so they couldn't exploit him like they might have wanted.  So what did they do?  They gave him grief, but he fought back and eventually established his own solid foundation.

Nowadays, you won't even get an appointment if you don't look like you're already sucking the media nozzle.  Maybe that's why I can't land a record deal....

A set of lyrics come to mind:

"All you know about me's what I sold you.  Dumb fuck, I sold out long before you'd ever even heard my name.  I sold my soul to make a record.  Dipshit man, you bought one..........All you read or hear or see on TV is a product praying for your fatass dirty dollar.  Shut up and BUY!"     - from "Hooker with a Penis" by Tool

I know we're getting off the topic, but I thought that needed to be said.

[Barry]

I get your point LCS, but consider this:
Back in the fifties, you'd have this record label mogol with no idea whatsoever on what was "hip" or "about to happen". That guy, let's call him Moe, would think: "okay, I don't get this, but the kids might love it"; so he put it out anyway. No doubt, money and profit were always part of the game. But there was a certain element of insecurity, ignorance from the part of Moe; who took a risk to make money. Sure: money.
But what do we have these days: you have an entire board of directors, all of which have a bachelor degree in economics, media management, marketing (no music degree, did you notice?) and a heated pool waiting to get paid for - we'll call them Warner. These folks do not take chances (as opposed to my proverbial Moe); these people want profit for breakfast. These people are not interested in good stuff, even if they don't get what it's about. These people wake up to the smell of money. These people rule the music industry. These people run around the bonfire each time their advisors have brought on another one Blink 182. These people grin at talent. They'll just slap it with enough money and artistic interveining, and at the end of the day who knows, they'll be buying another piece of real estate on Laurel Canyon.
Moe just wanted to make money, and he was willing to take a chance. Warner, on the contrary, dislikes having to take chances. Warner likes predictability. Warner has a hurd of advisors telling him what will sell. Warner loves the way sales are predictable these days. In fact, Warner is having a  ball.  Warner is a piece of shit. Warner wants us to forget that there is beautiful music beyond that which he is presenting.
My point: whereas Moe was willing to take a chance, Warner is the allwilling instance providing chances. What was released thru Moe, is now what is released thru Warner - because it will pay his jacuzzi.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

Somebody bring Moe back!

But what do we have these days: you have an entire board of directors, all of which have a bachelor degree in economics, media management, marketing (no music degree, did you notice?)

Oh yeah, I sure did!  This angers me to no end.  Who do these schmucks think they are?  What makes them think they have any authority over something they know nothing about?  Money?  Don't make me laugh!  I personally think they shouldn't be permitted to call the products they release "music."  The truly sad part is that there is a whole slew of musicians who follow suit and compose the worst drivel just to get a deal.  Ultimately, good ideas fall prey to greed.  No wonder FZ warned us about the dangers of a musical career in "Joe's Garage."

"Take it or leave it, you won't be alive if you are overtly creative." - FZ "The Evil Prince"

[bertanya]

I generally think this song also has a reverse psychology aspect to it.  It seems like a terrible thing to say - 'go on and get it over with then' - but in being so extreme about this, i think it can be more in synch with the extreme state of the mind of someone in the depths of despair.  There may then be some solace to be found through this song, and i certainly think that other of fz's songs are likely to be far more painful to anyone stuck in this state of mind.

bertanya

[guacamole]

i certainly think that other of fz's songs are likely to be far more painful to anyone stuck in this state of mind.

bertanya

any particular one's in mind here Bertanya ?
(thank you masked man, I've managed to quote at last !)

[Barry]

It seems like a terrible thing to say - 'go on and get it over with then' - but in being so extreme about this, i think it can be more in synch with the extreme state of the mind of someone in the depths of despair.  There may then be some solace to be found through this song

Now that was a new thought to me, and it makes sense, bertanya. I hadn't looked at it from that angle yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this forum and its participators are bitchin'!

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

I think this forum and its participators are bitchin'!

This here cowboy thinks so too.

[bertanya]

any particular one's in mind here Bertanya ?

Well yo mama's a toughie - but that's part of the job description of being a mama.   Blue light is probably not easy listening if your drowning in piss, and of course any happy songs in general are guaranteed to twist a sad frown into a grimace.

[guacamole]

[quote  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this forum and its participators are bitchin'!

No Barry, you're right.

Dare I suggest Bertanya, that you "go on 'n' get it over with then" put suicide chump to bed and get it on with yo mama.
(err, that sounds a bit weird - I mean start a new topic)