Suicide Chump

[Barry]

http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/You_Are_What_You_Is.html#Suicide

Go head on 'n get it over with then

As one who has lost a dear friend to suicide my toes curl whenever I hear that song. (you just watch, toe curling will be a recurring issue in this particular forum!)

[guacamole]

I think I already mentioned in "A Matter of Gender" that this is one of the songs that I'm uncomfortable with. As you said
"toe-curling".
Because I've worked most of my life in psychiatry I've known many people over the years who have taken their own lives and witnessed the devastating effects that this has upon family and friends. The people that I have had contact with who have subsequently killed themselves have all had serious mental illnesses.
However from my listening to this song I don't think that people with serious mental illness are the targets here.
What I suspect is that FZ is commenting upon people who threaten to harm themselves or engage in non life-threatening behaviours to draw attention to their state of distress. Occasionally these people will accidentally kill themselves or will end up with serious physical complaints due to repeatedly cutting/swallowing/inserting etc. or with permanent liver damage due to paracetamol.
Personally, I do not know of anyone with this sort of personality disorder who has jumped from a bridge.
I do know that people regularly jump from various bridges in or around the city where I live - one in particular stretches over a river estuary and the people who jump from it are so intent upon "getting it over with" that they do not walk out far enough to jump over the water, instead they jump over and plummet into rooftops and gardens of the houses below on the shoreline.
There is also reckoned to be a fairly high percentage of people who commit suicide in the absence of any apparent signs or symptoms of mental illness - in other words, a rational decision to end their lives.
I just wonder if FZ had considered what effect this song would have on a kid who heard it whose parent(s) had taken their own life.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

However from my listening to this song I don't think that people with serious mental illness are the targets here.
What I suspect is that FZ is commenting upon people who threaten to harm themselves or engage in non life-threatening behaviours to draw attention to their state of distress.

Oh boy!  Yet another toughie!  Barry, you're doing this to get us in a verbal frenzy again, huh?

Guacamole, I think your assessment is correct.  Zappa, as abrasive and caustic as he might have been, was not downright cruel.  I always had the feeling he would stick up for the underdog (who needs all the help he can get), but not be afraid to notify that same underdog of his own stupidity.  What he wanted (in my humble opinion) was improvement.

I quote once again:  "We are coming to the beginning of a new era, wherein the development of the inner self will be our most important asset."  FZ - Uncle Meat

[Barry]

Oh boy!  Yet another toughie!  Barry, you're doing this to get us in a verbal frenzy again, huh?

I specialize in verbal frenzy

Zappa, as abrasive and caustic as he might have been, was not downright cruel.  I always had the feeling he would stick up for the underdog (who needs all the help he can get), but not be afraid to notify that same underdog of his own stupidity.  What he wanted (in my humble opinion) was improvement.

I agree with that statement. What I also think is that, as time progressed, the way he expressed this became more and more sour. Now then, fasten seatbelts, because I'm about to go all BenWatsonian on you:
Some of what you mentioned, LCS, is sort of how I understand "negative dialectics". Meaning that often times I think Zappa was non verbally stating things by verbally stating the exact opposite. The way he criticizes things is not by looking at them from the outside, but by impersonating/mimicking them in all their trivial/obscene/stupid/hypocritical/etc glory.
This song, Suicide Chump, is one where he doesn't apply this technique. In this one, he's looking at something from the outside.

I'm out on a limb here, please don't shoot me!

[guacamole]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH !!!
NEGATIVE DIALECTICS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LEMME OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

I have never read anything about these "negative dialects" you guys are referring to.  I guess this is something from this Ben Dover, er Watson, I keep reading about.  I've never bothered with material about FZ written by other people (I stick to his original material), because I understand what Zappa's singing about (at least I'm pretty damn sure I think I understand).

In "Suicide Chump," the important operative phrases, are:

"You want a little attention, and you need it pretty quick."

directly followed by:

"Don't wanna mess your face up, or we won't know if it's you..."

This, to me, reeks of egotism and vanity.  The "suicide chump" here is not a person truly in trouble, but someone who tries to manipulate others by playing the role of a martyr.  I have no respect and no pity for people like that.  Take for example:  Kurt Cobain.  This guy achieves a celebrity status, the public buys his records like mad, and from what I gather, he managed to retain his artistic integrity (an extremely difficult undertaking nowadays).  He finds himself a woman of his choice and, with her help, sets a baby into the world.  This man had everything going for him, a situation I've been striving to acheive for years.  This is not good enough for him, so he decides to blow his brains out.  What a jerk!  What a lack of responsibility!  

Surely such talk, regardless of what context it is in, will bother people who have lost a friend through such tragic circumstances.  This is natural.  I think the people who really suffer are the family and friends left behind.  These are the ones who deserve sympathy.
 

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

The way he criticizes things is not by looking at them from the outside, but by impersonating/mimicking them in all their trivial/obscene/stupid/hypocritical/etc glory.


An excellent example of this is how FZ tears Jimmy Swaggart a new asshole with his TBBYNHIYL version of "Lonesome Cowboy Burt."  The first time I heard that one, I laughed until I had tears in my eyes and almost peed my pants.  I love how he tries to throw the guys doing the background singing.  They've got it tough, because they are already singing "Ah ah ah ah" which can turn into a "Ha ha ha" very quickly.

This is also a topic of interest for me concerning Zappa:  it seems to me he always put his musicians to the test by trying to make them laugh.  That's what I always thought what the "Secret Words" and "Fill in the Blank" sections were for.  Uh oh, am I going off on a tanget again?

I'm out on a limb here, please don't shoot me!

Barry, I'd be more worried about someone with a saw.
 

[guacamole]

Hi LCS, do you really think that FZ was deliberately trying to trip up the guys in the band ?
I always thought that they were just having enormous fun doing what they did best and that the "secret word" stuff was just a small way of alleviating the monotony of life on the road.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

Hiya, Guac!  Welcome back.  After your last quote:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH !!!
NEGATIVE DIALECTICS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LEMME OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I kinda thought you disappeared, never to return.  Nice to know I'm wrong.

You know what?   After second thoughts,  you're probably right.  Monotony is a BIG problem when you're on the road, and the "secret word" stuff was probably just an outlet to keep one from going crazy.  Maybe it wasn't originally a deliberate practice; just a funny by-product.

On the other hand, Zappa was known to write new charts and lyrics and make all sorts of changes during the course of a tour.  He also tried to keep his performers fit, fast and flexible through extensive rehearsal.  Rehearsal, of course, is only a preparation of what is to happen on stage later.  Watch him when he conducts.  There are a lot of elements that happen on the spot (think about the "strangling" Roy Estrada episode).  None of the band is exactly sure what's coming next, so they pay close attention.  If this is happening on a musical level, why not lyrical?

Perhaps I've read too much between the lines, but I think this sort of thing, properly implemented, could really develop a band's ability as a group to improvise.

[Chris]

Suicide is committed by weak people. No amount of irrelevant Psychiatric euphemisms can contradict this basic fact.

Frank is saying, in these lyrics, that he has no sympathy for those not willing to stick around and fight it out. Whether we agree with the blatant truth or not, people who kill themselves are, for the most part, not courageous enough to deal with life. Frank's lyrics, by and large, weren't about liking the way things are; they were about not bullshitting ourselves about the way things are. I do agree that the focal lines are those dealing with needing attention.


CF

[bertanya]

Suicide is committed by weak people. No amount of irrelevant Psychiatric euphemisms can contradict this basic fact.

What then is a strong person ?  

Didn't that Oates chap spend 4 months walking across antartica, then walk out into the night so that his companions might have better luck on their return to safety.
Ref: http://www.things.org/music/al_stewart/history/antartica.html

And what of the tibetan monks who have spent their lives in contemplation before deciding upon self-immolation as a course of action.
Ref: http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1998/4/29_7.html

I do not find it easy to think of them as weak people.

bertanya

[Barry]

Suicide is committed by weak people. No amount of irrelevant Psychiatric euphemisms can contradict this basic fact.

That's a generalization if ever I saw one. Even then, following that logic: does that make it okay to squeeze those people into one single stereotype mould - the "hysterical, attention-craving, self-absorbed" individual who is "probably not gonna do it, but is just lookin' for people to have pity on him/her"? I'm pretty sure FZ was targetting that part of the "suicidal contingent", but your response prooves that his message didn't get across fully. Perhaps because FZ's lyrics weren't clear enough about it either. I mean, sure you have your attention-craving pseudo-suicidals, but you also have people that really don't want that attention, who in fact actually avoid it; and simply have this secret, malignously growing plan to kill themselves.
I also don't agree with the term "weak". We are all, in the way we think, act an feel, a product of those chemicals that rule our body's and brains. Some are born with an innate conviction that all is wonderful and groovy, and never find any obstacle on their path to proove the opposite; others are born with a very self-conscious, forever churning mind. Are those weaker? Or are they perhaps more receptive to all the bad shit that goes on around them? A mind that does not think, will not encounter any problems, because it will not identify them as such. A mind that does think, will either identify those problems as such yet push them aside (because that's the easy path we are trained to take) ; or it will identify them and get stuck with them (at which point, society says: "nonono! don't look! ignore! move on!"). Those people lack the armour, or the blind spot if you prefer, the rest of us have built up. So then who in this game is "weak"? Is it you and me, who have the necessary thick skin that makes sure nothing throws us off balance too much, or those who cannot do anything else but face that which can make you loose balance? Are they weak for understanding things as they are without the ShitFilter we've all developed?

Conclusion: I consider this particular lyric to be shortcoming and inadequate, I find it harsh and inaccurate. It also prooves that Zappa was better at dissecting "vices" when he crept into the character he was trying to depict. It's also an exhibit of how FZ's lyrics grew sour in the eighties - whatever the reason for that might be.

[guacamole]

Chris,

Obviously I have no idea what your experiences (if any) have been in relation to psychiatry, suicide and parasuicidal behaviour.

I am not aware of using any euphemisms ( this suggests using an inoffensive word or phrase in place of one which could be considered hurtful or offensive).

I do however find your assertion that all people who committ suicide are weak, as being quite offensive.

I can list the wide and varied reasons for people committing suicide if you would like me to. As Bertanya has pointed out, very often there are courageous humanitarian reasons behind such decisions.

As pointed out earlier in the thread, I think FZ was targetting people who in certain situations which they find stressful, say things which they really have no intention of carrying through, perhaps in the hope or expectation of evoking a sympathetic response.

I have no idea of what motivated FZ to write this song - I didn't like it when I first heard it and I still don't.

[Chris]

Bertanya: Touche'! I should have been more specific. I meant: people who don't commit suicide to save others' lives. Is that better? (The Tibetan monks, however, are out of their minds.)

Barry: Excellent points, but I can't force myself to insert sympathy for others' "chemicals" into my interpretation just to make the song sound better to myself. Frank's words are devoid of sympathy, so my interpretation has to be such.

I'm sorry, but I also can't agree that his lyrics were any different in the '80s than before. He always spoke directly and without bullshit, which was what made his words so appealing in the first place. Whether or not anyone agrees (not required -- these are our opinions, after all), I think he's right about not feeling sorry for people who take the pathetic way out -- or make it look like they're going to.

The song's hilarious. Even if you just hear it in the "making-fun-of-attention-getting-people" context, it's the same sort of jibe he'd always been known for.

Guacamole: People are looking left and right to be offended by anything, especially direct language like Zappa's -- so your offense doesn't surprise me. People have been taking offense to Frank's music since 1966. (Berke Breathed called this epidemic "Offensensitivity" in the '80s.)

I've had three good friends kill themselves since I was 10. One of them was an 11-year-old girl whose father was an alcoholic and abused her. She jumped out the apartment window. One was a 16-year-old schoolmate who shot himself -- his parents wanted him to pursue a course in life that he wasn't fond of, and his limited high school perspective didn't allow him to see a bigger picture than his current situation. The final was a 24-year-old guy whose girlfriend had broken up with him. He swallowed an entire bottle of allergy pills.

In all three cases, my first reaction, amongst the grief, was that they had taken a weak, pathetic decision -- whether anyone agrees with this reaction or not. My interpretation of suicide lyrics, therefore, will be based on my own experiences. I think the song's funny, because it says things that most people wouldn't.

If your experiences regarding the reasons for suicide (based on what? College textbooks?) are different from mine, then you're entitled to disagree with me and your opinion is obviously just as valid. I thank you for sharing your thoughts, and perhaps I could use a little education in the matter. If I thought I knew everything, I would have no reason to wake up in the morning.

(I'll warn you, however, that I find most of the Psychiatry profession to be made up of doctors who try to convince their patients that they have "dysfunctions" so the doctors can afford new cars every couple years -- so the deck's already stacked against that whole, practically immaterial industry in my head. Please don't take offense -- this is, again, from experience. And I think hypnosis should be made illegal, incidentally.)

I love intelligent debates. We just don't get enough of this on the Net.


CF again

[Noolie]

Wow, I just liked Zappa and his music, what the hell is going on?

Yes Chris I think your experience has been limited.  Mental illness is called an illness for a reason, and the recovery science is far from exact.  But by not trying new methods to deal with it, we might as well go back to using leaches to get rid of ailments.  I would never attempt to call someone with Cancer, or Diabetes weak, they rarely chose their illness, much like many people who suffer from mental illness.  Death rates are high and mental illness kills weak and strong people.

As long as the shrinks don't lock up all the musicians for closer scrutinization we should be fine.

Thanks for getting my dander up, its been a while and it is greatly appreciated.