a matter of gender

[guacamole]

I'm fairly new to this sorta thing, so forgive me if this question has been posed before on any of the forums.
I was just wondering about the gender divide amongst fans of FZ. Looking at this site there appear to be only two women contributors out of over 70 on the members list
(of course I could be wrong about this).
I have only ever known one woman to be a fan of FZ (she was from California so may have had a parochial interest in where she could get her poodle clipped in Burbank).
All the other women that I've met, where the subject of music comes up for discussion, without exception have shown varying degrees of mainly negative reaction from mere disinterest to absolute loathing of FZ and his music.
Is his music a male thang ?
I have of course seen many women attending his concerts over the the years but how many of them were the ones who actually bought the tickets, I don't know.
One couple that I know went along to one of FZ's shows and the woman actually fell asleep during the show.
It just seems to me that there's something - I don't know what though - about FZ's music that attracts males and repels women.
any thoughts out there people ?

[Barry]

Hmmm this is sort of a touchy subject...

A couple of things that might play a role:
- Zappa's widely spread reputation of being a misogynist (be it justified or not)
- The fact that male Zfans are perhaps, and generally speaking, more prone toward "gung ho" analysis and discussion with regard to his body of work
- The fact that female Zfans perhaps, feel less compelled to have their point of view expressed in forums and newsgroups and what-have-you

I don't think it's a matter of male fans outnumbering female fans; I just think women manage to do just fine without the kind of edgy, endless discussion us members of the male contingent feel the need to engage in  

[Debrakadabra]

If I may say something about the female outlook (any other female FZ fans feel free to correct me)...No matter how much I try I cannot get into the kind of statistical discussions that most male FZ fans seem to relish.  I do not know if this has anything to do with gender or my horror of mathematics.  I suspect there may be some truth to the gender argument.  Learned or inborn?  I don't  presume to answer that one.

On the other hand I am continually amazed at how I don't take offence at 90% of Uncle Frankie's lyrics.  I think this is something learned over the years  that counteracts my inborn or learned feminine squeamishness or moral rectitude if you will.  I think that the female part of humanity labors under many levels of crap that have been sold to us as the right thing to do, under the name of religion, family values, etc.  And it just makes our lives harder.  That is what makes us react the way we do to FZ's songs.  I have learned a little better to relax and learn to love being human.  That is why I don't get my panties in a twist over his lyrics.  Yes, they are stupid sometimes, but there are times when they do have a point, possibly made in a hard way, but, hey, there are times when you have to hit the mule with a 2x4 between the eyes to get his attention.  Sometimes I think he is wrong, but I don't go into a froth about it.  And the music more than makes up for it!

But the statistical thing, I don't know, that's deeper.  I react to things on an emotional personal level, not a mathematical analysis level.  I can dig the kind of analysis that lcs did on the Blue Light, though.   Wish I had time to really get into that!

That's all I can say
DebK

[guacamole]

re: the statistical thing DebK, I have no great interest in stats (really, believe me!) and I'm hopeless at mathematics.
I cannot say that I enjoy 100% of FZ's oeuvre - I would be interested to know if anyone can honestly say that they do think it is all absolutely fantastic.
You say that you don't take offence at 90% of his lyrics, well due to my disinterest in stats and lack of ability in working out percentages, I could not be so precise. What I can say though is that I don't like the following songs - I know that I'm setting myself up here for howls of derision such as "yeah but Frank wasn't condoning such behaviour, it was just social commentary, these things actually happen"
Well, I know they do, and perhaps his reportage approach to documenting such things as violence against women has some merit, I do think the presentational style sits uneasily sometimes with the message, does this make it more powerful ? I don't know.
Anyhow, I do have difficulty with the line in Bamboozled By Love - "bang her head all along the wall" and Jumbo Go Away - "or I will blacken your eye". I also find the song Suicide Chump particularly difficult to take given my line of work. Am I being too sensitive/naive or just plain stupid ?
I'm sure someone out there will let me know.

[Noolie]

If the underware worn in Jazz Discharge Party Hats were taken from a man and worn by a woman, would men still like the song, would women think it is entertaining?

[Debrakadabra]

I have to agree with you about Bamboozled By Love, Guacamole, it's not one of my favorites...And yet the music is very engaging and it does afford insight into a type of mind that thinks all problems come from other people not from within and will revenge itself on those who are weaker or who will put up with it.  These people exist.  The upsetting part of the song is that there is no judgement offered about the contents.  Not comfortable is it?  

So what do you do with this song?  Listen to it and cringe; ignore the lyrics and dig the sounds: intellectualize it; accept it as a reality document?  Cop outs!

The thing we have to get over is the idea that by listening to these lyrics we are going to go out and do the same.  That is what makes this kind of subject matter creepy to listen to.  But we would go out and watch a violent movie or play a violent video game and not think anything of it.  I used to play an extremely violent computer car race game, but that does not mean I am going to strap guns on my Ford and start shooting or that I will use my car as a weapon.  I know this is not a good thing to do, despite having been exposed to this game every day for about 6 mo.

No, what we are left with is the fact that we have to make up our own minds about what is going on in this song and figure out what the merit or demerit of the actions are.  Gods, just like real life! What I am finding out is that Uncle Frankie doesn't allow us to be lazy listeners.

Agree?  Disagree?  Got a better thought?  

DebK

PS  The 90% figure was just a wild guess.  No calculations made.

[guacamole]

Noolie, I don't know any woman who would be stupid enough to wear a pair of soiled male underpants on their head let alone get involved in sniffing the contents.
I think it's yet another of those "breakfast report" situations where the story is related to FZ and the absurdity of the tale interests him. I find the sprechgesang
interplay between the vocal line and Vai's guitar more interesting than the story, such as it is.
As to your question of whether a woman would find the song entertaining if the roles were reversed - I doubt it, but there again I'm hardly qualified to answer that .

[guacamole]

DebK, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I know that most people with an ounce of common sense do not take things too literally and tend to look for meaning in order to make some sense of apparently difficult situations.
However, I'm reminded of the public reaction in this country to a television comedy series which ran in the 60's and 70's where the main character was a bigotted idiot - I think this idea was lifted for American TV too but I can't remember the name of it ( it was also very successful in Australia ).
The problem with this was that although the main character was the scriptwriters focal point for ridicule in a comedy situation, many people took the characters views as being
worthy of support and reiteration as political statements.
The irony was completely lost on them and the scriptwriter who had deliberately made the characters views odious remains puzzled as to how some sections of the viewing public could get it so wrong. Unfortunately, many of these people actually went out and voted in elections enabling right wing candidates to gain seats in local government.
So although I would like to think that people take a considered view of things, all too often I'm afraid they don't use the brains they were born with and just accept things at face value because it's easier to do so.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

I can dig the kind of analysis that lcs did on the Blue Light, though.  Wish I had time to really get into that!


Thanks for the feedback, DebK.  I do agree with you about we as listeners having to make our own judgements about the merits / demerits of characters in songs.  Zappa put high demands not only upon his musicians, but his listeners as well.  As he himself put it, however, most of his songs are about stupid men.  This is simply because men generally do more stupid shit than women (or maybe men still receive more publicity for the stupid shit they do).

Guacamole, as far as Bamboozled is concerned, be careful about where you extract the lyrics.  In the example you present, it is the woman doing the head-banging, not the man.  

"She can scream and she can holler - bang her head all along the wall."

The most disturbing phrase in the song (in my opinion) is this:  "...and the reason you have not seen her - she is underneath the lawn."  This is most definitely incriminating.  Don't forget that FZ absolutely detested love lyrics and thought that they were a prime source of the poor mental health in American kids these days.  I think he uses this song as an outlet to express a scenario that happens all too often.  The protagonist is singing the song from his own subjective point of view,  and naturally wouldn't condemn himself.  FZ is clever enough not to give the protagonist a chance to justify his actions.  Let's face it, folks, murder just isn't cool.  Anyone with even half an ounce of common sense would not be foolish enough to copy such actions, let alone boast about it.

I must paraphrase FZ once again:  "Disturbed people take a disturbed course of action triggered by ANY stimulus, be it my tie, your hair or that chair over there."

I think the main reason why it appears that more men are Zappa fans is simply because of the scatalogical humor involved.  Shit, snot, vomit and semen are things that men seem to find entertaining.  Women, I surmise, are just turned off by such things and tune out anything that may follow, regardless of whether an underlying moral value is present.

By the way, Guacamole, the TV sitcom you refer to is probably "All in the Family;" the main character was an ignorant bigot named Archie Bunker.  Most people missed the sarcasm in the equation, probably because of their own stupidity.  A little later, the sitcom guys released a new series called "The Jeffersons," a sort of affirmative action in order to rectify their "mistake".  George Jefferson was just as much of a bigot as Archie Bunker, but most people missed the point once again.

[guacamole]

LCS, I accept your point, the line that you quote from Bamboozled by Love is of course followed by....
"If she don't give me what I want she ain't gonna have no head at all" the inference being that the male in the scenario is threatening extreme violence. Not only buried in the back yard but decapitated as well !.

Thanks also for jogging the memory about the Archie Bunker character (over here the characters name was Alf Garnett and the series was called 'Til Death Us Do Part).

It's an interesting viewpoint about male interest in bodily secretions.

I thought that perhaps the quotation that you use of FZ's about "disturbed people" related to people with a mental illness (such as a psychotic delusional state) as opposed to people who are simply just bad and violent.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

The quote is from FZ's testimony in Maryland against the record labeling issue, not the testimony before the U.S. Senate (excerpts can be seen in FZ's Video from Hell).  He was using this to explain how ludicrous it is to place blame upon an artist's lyrics for some other person's rash and reckless actions.

As far as people who are just bad and violent goes, I'd say there's a great difficulty involved with trying to prevent them from doing evil.  A lot of those guys are in powerful positions nowadays:  (fill in the blank).

Another twist on the discussion here:  an interesting thing is happening with our language over the last few years.  A lot of expressions are being taken for granted, and used without putting much thought in what one is really saying.

How many times have you heard a friend, or even a family member, say something like, "I'm gonna kill him / her / that fucker" ?   I lost count years ago, and it seems to me that no one really worries about it.  I consider it a dangerous game; the value of a human life shrinks continuously with the devaluation of a statement like that.  What would come of it?  When confronted, the speaker would probably say something like, "aw, come on.  You know I don't really mean it!"  Well, if we don't mean it any more, who / what can we really take seriously?  And, under what circumstances?

Statements, especially in a work of art like a book or a song, are there for a purpose, be it provocation or character description, et cetera.  I am quite sure Zappa's intentions were noble, whether they offend or not.  He wanted things to improve, otherwise he wouldn't have made as much noise as he did, let alone consider running for president.

[pappap999]

many girls {when I was young} ladies {now that I am older}  have often been caught up in the, " genius envy"  of frank zappa  often not listening to his music but instead becoming jealous over the love that a male could have for someone capable of not being in the room physically but musically and getting more attention than the female who is present.  Now, don't get me wrong I'm all in favor of a clipped poodle now and then but I don't really think guys are decapitating women, they may be in favor of  ramming it up the poop shoot  I'm sorry that wasn't nice.  really think of all the shit being bellowed out by boy groups to girls who will end up being trashed because they thought it was love.  these old repetitive stories of music making murderers or suicide potentials of  anyone who listens to music such as zappas is highly overated.  I am a R.N. at a psychiatric hospital and 99.9% of them are not there due to music or a book, rather it was something alcoholic or drugs. which oddly enough is what in most cases caused the abuse of another human being.      

[doc]

, to get back to Guacamole's observations. I think there may be something larger here. Look around at other areas of music and what do you see? Many men a few women. I'm not trying to answer the ? here because I don't know but we can't turn away from the fact that 90%(?) or more of rock musicians are male, how about all the jazz musicians over the last 50 or 60 years. How about avant guard the same? Maybe we're asking the wrong ?'s Other than "classical" music (strings) Most women in music seem to be pop oriented. Whitney,Celine,Striesand,ect,ect. The subjects they sing about ? love and relationships ect. Let's not fool ourselves here women and men are different. WE have different brains and we process information differently. Now don't go off on me now I not suggesting that women are not capable of abstract thought or anything like that . And I really don't know what this means. But it must mean something and maybe we can talk about it and learn something here. I asked my wife why she doesn't like FZ's music. She replied That she like some of them. Ok I can understand that. She thinks some of them are just to complicated to enjoy. Ok no gender bias there. I know a lot of men that feel the same way. Wow what a catch 22, if we had more women here we could hear some more female perspective!!!!!

[pappap999]

my 2nd wife of 10 yrs. just adores the man and loves his music.  a pretty much country music line dancing woman in total when I met her. Oh, she still goes there but feels while they are just musicians she understands why I feel they will be coming out with a worship book on the true meanings of life according to zappa. music the man made back in the sixties such as freakout where only in it for the money and reuben and the jets culturally apply as well today. I always go to  his music whenever I need a good line stealing always but only because the man was capable of cutting thru all bullshit and slicing the baloney thin.  anyway getting way off the point  genderizing zappa to females is no problem put the music on and put often unplayed items such as watermelon in easter hay or as I do she loves oldies to so I cut and paste sort of all the goodies go cry on sobody elses shoulder  or how could I be such a fool  many times earlier in my marriage I would play zappa but jumble around the songs play those mentioned then throw in lonesome cowboy burt she would ask who is that always amazed at the talent this one man had.  oh well I'm trying to make a point but seem to be yaking too much    read all about him always but play the music people, read  his liner notes, classics all of them. [when written by him]  okay, so  everybody x-mas is only over for some of us,  I continue to send my love to all who put their words here and for those who put the site up for us to do just that talk.  happy new year--remember stay home off the roads  for1/1/03  party at home share the music and if you have any children, listen to them. again love to all keep writing or this grandpap will have no place to talk on line.

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

I am a R.N. at a psychiatric hospital and 99.9% of them are not there due to music or a book, rather it was something alcoholic or drugs. which oddly enough is what in most cases caused the abuse of another human being.

Hi, Pappy, nice to hear from you again.  Yes, that's exactly the backing I needed for my argument.  Thanks.

, to get back to Guacamole's observations. I think there may be something larger here.

Yes, you're right.  Guacamole, praise to you for initiating such a seldom mentioned but intriguing topic.  It does seem that women are not properly represented in music as a whole.  It's difficult to point out the reasons for this.  I feel, however, that pop music definitely lends itself to the exploitation of women, and that is where most female acts will land.  There's a huge market for superficial, hard-on generating pop music, especially since the music video became the prime medium for broadcasting new singles.  Too bad, because there are many talented women out there who want credit for their abilities:  "Wow, she's got great chops!" instead of "Wow, she's got a great set of jugs."

A good example of a would-be exploited woman that turned heads and basically fucked with the industry is Wendy O. Williams.  I don't think she was a virtuoso, but she did know how to milk the system.  She seemed to have an interesting mix of sex appeal and ugliness.  For those of you who never had the pleasure of seeing Wendy O. and her Plasmatics, picture this:  a tall, athletic, blond woman with a BIG ol' mohawk, bare breasts with the exception of a little electrical tape covering each nipple, cutting a television in half with a chainsaw.  Now that's what I call anarchy.  Sure, it could be considered degrading, but she stood tall and proud on stage, like some Punk-goddess.  I don't think Britney or Kylie would have enough self confidence (or humor) to pull off a show like that!