Reggae and ska style

[bertanya]

I guess it depends on your definition of rap.

No probs with a dictionary definition - rythmic/rhyming words over a musical background

If you consider "sprechzang" rap, then I'd agree.

Sprechgesang - would seem to be a looser style, though similar, i'd suggest rap is sprechgesang, but sprechgesang is not necesarily rap

But, to say that ...Monster Magnet is an early example of Rap (as the popular medium has been portrayed) is pretty silly.

Surely was pretty silly, i was quoting. It's not difficult to believe you're right though, on revue the speech parts do not seem to fit the criteria of rap, however i think the song Big Shot by the Bonzo Dog Doh Dah Band would qualify as a rap song (From 1967)

When i suggested rap style is probably as old as music i think i brought to mind two considerations

One was medieval troubadours strumming the lute, and adding extempore lyrics, www research found the following,  and whilst there is no extempore aspect, there is a spoken aspect, so possibly it could count as rap using the modern understanding - though i doubt it would sound much like NWA.

From http://faculty.washington.edu/petersen/alfonso/muswerf.htm - "Returning once more to the songs of the troubadours and trouvères.... A rendition of cantigas in such a declamatory rhythm would not contain any conflicts between melodic and textual accents, but it would still contain passages in which an unimportant syllable, such as a mute e, is sung to several pitches, while a crucial word receives only one pitch. "

The other was dear old cave men, muckin about, bits of music, bits of speech, which certainly requires imagination to have any faith that in this context there is any hint of rap.

And for a further opinion from http://www.africanorigin.com/historyofrap.html there is - "Most histories of rap start in the mid 1970s, but rap actually may evolve from as far back as African 'chanting' traditions, moving into the slave era, Rastafarianism and other forms of African-American music."

Any idea when "as far back as African 'chanting' traditions" starts, compared to my suggestion, "as far back as music itself".

And finally...

I guess you have to take into account all those hieroglyphics with the pharohs wearing their crowns backwards, and their togas down on their hips...

Is this like take the piss time or something, seems irrelevent to the topic (rap) - and pharoahs is misspelt !!!

[whatchamacallit]

if ...monster magnet was a rap (whatever we call it song), then there was one before that, if i am not mistaken. just listen to bob dylans subterranean homesick blues.

SKA with ZAPPA? definitely true. Try to dance to his version of stairway to heaven (the best band you never....)

we did that the other day in our club, and its so ska that even the other guests came to the dancefloor. mainly punks. what e weird sight.....

[Starving Artiste]

Howdy Whatchamacalit!
I hate to sound totally ignorant, but then again I am!  I am mostly concerned with the visual arts and so have missed a lot.  What is the definition of ska?  I'm sure I have run into it before, even if only on the aforementioned songs, but what is it really?  Can you give me a tempo, a range, anything?  What audience is it aimed at?

SA

PS Neat photo

[SOFA]

I guess it depends on your definition of rap.
No probs with a dictionary definition - rythmic/rhyming words over a musical background.
Thank you for the Webster's moment, but I was refering to popular usage. And while the definition fits, I know that there's more to the musical genre known as rap than that.
If we're to buy into the "origins" theory, almost all popular music today derives from the "African 'chanting' traditions".
I guess you have to take into account all those hieroglyphics with the pharohs wearing their crowns backwards, and their togas down on their hips...
Is this like take the piss time or something, seems irrelevent to the topic (rap) - and pharoahs is misspelt !!!
Good point; we are, after all discussing rap...
Sorry - Fay-ros. The point was a shot at humor, and its relevance is found in another FZ quote: "No musical trend has ever succeeded that you couldn't dress-up to." Introducing rap couture to the Ancients struck me as funny. Maybe it wasn't. It was, however, relevant.

[bertanya]

...i guess it's just so easy to misinterpret and think you have fair woes.

[bertanya]

And as an alternative to fair woes...

I guess it depends on your definition of rap. If you consider "sprechzang" rap, then I'd agree.

From Frank Zappa Interview by Bob Marshall, October 22, 1988...

Marshall: I remember in an interview around the late Seventies, you brought up the concept of "sprechstimme", a German term.

Zappa: A speech-song. That means, instead of singing all the pitches of the song, you half speak it, you half sing it. It's a technique that was attributed to Schoenberg who used it in a piece called "Pierrot Lunaire". And the way it was written was: all the pitches for the soprano to sing, the ones that she was supposed to half speak, had X's on the stems. But I don't think he invented it because this is a type of vocal styling that has been used in Blues. It's also been used in other types of ethnic music. You can find it in Bulgarian music where, instead of exactly singing the note, you imply the pitch of the note, but you're really talking it. It's in between.

Marshall: You started doing your talking stuff around that time when you were talking about that concept?

Zappa: The first album had "sprechstimme" on it.


And from the Last Words Interview on this site...

Zappa: On "Freak Out!" (1966) there was already a rapsong: "Return of the son of monster magnet".


I guess fz viewed these terms as partly interchangable.  Which i think more neatly tidies up this loose end...

I don't like to think of the possibility that fz was referring to different songs !!!

[SOFA]

A speech-song. That means, instead of singing all the pitches of the song, you half speak it, you half sing it. It's a technique that was attributed to Schoenberg who used it in a piece called "Pierrot Lunaire". On "Freak Out!" (1966) there was already a rapsong: "Return of the son of monster magnet".
I guess fz viewed these terms as partly interchangable.  Which i think more neatly tidies up this loose end...

Only if you agree with the premise - which, I do not. "Return..." is not 'Rap'; "Promiscuous" is Rap.
I enjoy them both...
SOFA

[Debrakadabra]

Yes, Monster Magnet is music built up like a collage, I think the term is alleatory music.  It has it's own structure made of repetition and variation.  It reminds me more of the way classical symphonies are built, but not with the same musical elements.  If that makes sense.  But it is not rap.  Rap depends a lot on a specific type of poetry which (originally) was ad libbed on the spot.  Although Monster Magnet sounds loose and adlibbed on first listening, it actually is very tightly structured.

DebK

[bertanya]

HUMO: What do you think of sampling?

Zappa: Sampling in my view is equal to stealing... It's recycling. Just like rap. Jesus, rap is nothing new. On "Freak Out!" (1966) there was already a rapsong: "Return of the son of monster magnet".

I agree modern rap music has unique qualities which make it distinct from anything that went before.  

I also agree this quote can be entirely disagreed with.

That said, is there not a possibility for a less strict use of the idea of rap songs,  which can be backdated to before the start of modern rap music ?

[Zappa Is Best]

Last time I talked to Ike Willis, he was explaining how HE showed Frank how to play Reggae. He takes full responsibility. Any questions, mail me or ask in the forums.

[dkaplowitz]

It also fits in with Frank's taste in free-er, more complex rhythmical constructs, such as the polymetric phrasing (you know, polymeters, such as 5/1, and polyrhythms, such as 13/7 ostinatos (SUAPYG I think uses this in places).

Sorry if this is slightly off topic, but what exactly is "5/1" in a polymetric context, or was that a typo and you meant something else like 5:4 or 5:3? Thanks,

Dave

[mogul]

it seems like much of zappa's live shows were improv- made up on the spot depending on mood. the same can be said about his reggae. he would just give a gesture to his band, and they would bust into a reggae style right there (or whatever style). this keeps the shows non repetitive and enjoyable for everyone.

[leventuysal]

nobody remember "panty rap" from tinseltown rebellion?
there's no rapping in that song as we today know rap music, but the background is definitely reggae.