Strictly commercial?

[sharleena]

Hey Frankie!
Everything fine wherever you are? I hope so.
I was looking at a discussion in an e-mails group devoted to you, and somebody mentioned that Apostrophe was a "commercial" album. I don't think so!! Although i have that edition with Overnight Sensation, so i see both as a whole, i don't think it's a commercial album.
I'm not really sure why people consider something commercial in a bad sense, like if it was made just to be sold, no matter quality. Would you agree about Apostrophe being a commercial album? Your thoughts?

PS: i'll fight in the mud if necessary! Apostrophe is not a commercial album!!!  

[Debrakadabra]

Now, now, Sharleena, that is not exactly what I meant to say, and I think you know it.  I am sorry to intrude upon this conversation, but, really, you are putting an extreme interpretation on what I said.  And mud slinging is so unnecessary.  

The only way I would say that Frank's music was commercial would be in his hope that they would sell to someone interested in what he did.  And maybe, just maybe there was a little more consideration for that on this album than on some others.  Like Burnt Weeny Sandwich or Uncle Meat, etc.

But, I apologize.  Frankie, you are well able to speak for yourself.  I did not mean to put words in your mouth.  Or emmenations from your other-worldly essence as the case may be.

And I shall defend my right to speak my mind as and when I will!

DebK

[SOFA]

PS: i'll fight in the mud if necessary!
Mud Wrestling? Cool, I'm in!
(maybe later, if you do well, Jello...)
you are putting an extreme interpretation on what I said.  And mud slinging is so unnecessary.
Shhhh; DebK! I'm trying to be suave here!
And I shall defend my right to speak my mind as and when I will!
Cool! What would be your favorite flavor?
Actually Frankie, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the issue also. Was Apostrophe a conscious attempt at commerciality?
Now about this wrestling thing...
SOFA

[Frankie]

Now about this wrestling thing...
SOFA
Sounds like someone is in dire need of a lonely person device! Hey SOFA, take your sexual frustrations and your masterbations and ram it up your...
Ah, what the fuck.
Hey Frankie!
Hello Sharleena, lovely to hear from you.
Everything fine wherever you are? I hope so.
All is well with the ethers; thanks for asking. What's on your mind?
I was looking at a discussion in an e-mails group devoted to you, and somebody mentioned that Apostrophe was a "commercial" album. I don't think so!! Although i have that edition with Overnight Sensation, so i see both as a whole, i don't think it's a commercial album
I guess that would depend on your definition of commercial; it can be defined many ways.
I'm not really sure why people consider something commercial in a bad sense, like if it was made just to be sold, no matter quality. Would you agree about Apostrophe being a commercial album? Your thoughts?
Again, it depends on how you personally define commercial, and how you feel personally about commercialism. Just because something is considered commercial, does not have to mean that it is of an inferior nature.
I am sorry to intrude upon this conversation, but, really [Sharleena], you are putting an extreme interpretation on what I said.
Hello Dk! No intrusion here - as you seem to have been a part of some conversation that sparked this question.
The only way I would say that Frank's music was commercial would be in his hope that they would sell to someone interested in what he did.
Apostrophe is not a commercial album!!!
Okay Ladies, let's consider MY definition of commercial; then let's talk about accessibility (which seems to fit in with this conversation, unless I'm way out to lunch.
First off, commercial is what sells. In that respect, Apostrophe was a very commercial album - maybe not quite as much as Overnite, and a little more than OSFA. As far as musically accessible, the preceding is also true.
Your contention seems over whether or not commercial is a good thing - and whether or not I intended it that way.
Maybe, just maybe there was a little more consideration for that on [Apostrophe] than on some others.  Like Burnt Weeny Sandwich or Uncle Meat, etc
I do not find the music on BWS any less accessible than on Apostrophe. Uncle Meat, on the other hand, did contain a lot of music that may not have been as accessible to the majority. But Apostrophe does not have less quality just because it's more accessible.
"Intending" to be more commercial with one album suggests an intention to be less commercial with others and I can't agree with that. As professional artists, I know you both enjoy your creations; but, why spend too much time on creating something that isn't going to help support you in your art? I figured damn near everything I ever released was commercial and I don't really understand why one recording would sell way better than another. I was, after all, trying to make a living thru my music and, therefore, believed that everything I put out would help in that respect. Why one recording sold better than another is something I was never able to figure out. The public is a fickle motherfucker...
To all those who feel Apostrophe was a blatant attempt at commerciality - Fuck You! The recordings of that era reflected the abilities of the band at that time. That era held a very strong jazz/R&B affinity and I would have been a fool to force the music in another direction. Not that I didn't push the envelope a bit...  (On a personal level, I was quite pleased with my guitar work on those recordings).
To those that feel Apostrophe is somehow superior to Uncle Meat or 200 Motels simply because it's pedestrian enough to dance to, Fuck You! You need to broaden your musical horizons - or join The Partridge Family forum, because we be talkin' a language you'll NEVER understand.
I've said this a number of times: I made records primarily because I wanted to hear what the music sounded like; if the public loved it, bonus; if not, tough shit! But, fortunately, I'm not naive, stupid, or ignorant...
Now, we got to get into something real. Dk is not completely wrong in her assessment that some records were put together and released with differing 'motives'. One of the most 'intentionally' commercial recordings I ever released was Sheik Yerbouti. The shit with Herbie and Warners had gotten to a point where everything I'd worked towards for almost 20 years was severely threatened. We were going broke - fast. The ONLY money I was making was from touring, everything else was tied up in litigation.
So SY was recorded and released with every intention of garnering commercial success (Remember, I didn't always predict that success too successfully. Why Bobby Brown sold so well in Europe is beyond me. Why City of Tiny Lites didn't blast off on College and FM radio is beyond me). I 'knew' that Dancin Fool would make the charts. At that point in time, I needed airplay like never before. That commercial 'intention' does not diminish the quality of the music, or of the muscianship, in any way - in my mind.
The only releases that I authorized, which I felt were probably not up to my normal exacting standards, were the LSO and the Francesco (and Francesco only because the music was not mine). Oh, the Beat the Boots series too - but not because the music was inferior, only the recordings...
So Ladies (and Germ), yes, Apostrophe was a commercial album. No, it was not intended to be more or less than any other of that era; it sold well and for that I'm grateful, as it introduced an entirely new generation of fans to the music. Yes, it was more 'accessible' to the general public than many other recordings. No, I was not 'selling out' the music to become more accessible, or to 'be more' commercial. You try your best to please those who would consume your work, that you might continue to enjoy a life that makes that work possible.
That, kids, is the essence of true Capitalism.
Thank you all (yes, even you SOFA) for writing,
Frankie

[Debrakadabra]

Hi Frankie

Thanks for putting up with refereeing (almost literally)  our little discussion here.  But where else could we resolve this?

Yes, I had that feeling about SY.  Not that I don't understand the pressure to produce something, anything that will sell and sell a lot!    But even there, I could find things to enjoy.  You singing Dancing Fool on SNL is one of my favorite memories.   Commerciality be damned, I laughed my ass off!  I Am In You has it's moments.

If the quality is totally not there, though, the buyers won't be either eventually.  You done good.  I wouldn't be hanging around if I thought otherwise.

So, Sharl, do we have a truce?  Do you think I am being too hard on Frank, still?

And Sofa, it's lime, for what its worth!  (Go consult Miss Pinky, please!)

DebK

[sharleena]

Hi Frankie

Thanks for putting up with refereeing (almost literally)  our little discussion here.  But where else could we resolve this?

Yes, I had that feeling about SY.  Not that I don't understand the pressure to produce something, anything that will sell and sell a lot!    But even there, I could find things to enjoy.  You singing Dancing Fool on SNL is one of my favorite memories.   Commerciality be damned, I laughed my ass off!  I Am In You has it's moments.

If the quality is totally not there, though, the buyers won't be either eventually.  You done good.  I wouldn't be hanging around if I thought otherwise.

So, Sharl, do we have a truce?  Do you think I am being too hard on Frank, still?

And Sofa, it's lime, for what its worth!  (Go consult Miss Pinky, please!)

DebK

Thanks Frankie!
Of course, Deb, we do have a truce! In fact, due
that i'm scatter-brained, i wasn't remember it was you who mentioned that (sorry about that!) Maybe it's just that i have that misconception about the commercial thing , you know, it makes me jump like boiled milk...
I happen to like Bobby Brown, and that one was/is pretty commercial, isn't it? still i think it's a great song. oh well...

And mud slinging is so unnecessary.

 
One last: if iyou'd have know Frankie was going to refeer   the mud wrestling thing, wouldn't you have seriously consider it?  

[Debrakadabra]

[One last: if iyou'd have know Frankie was going to refeer  the mud wrestling thing, wouldn't you have seriously consider it?

Oooh, that does put a different light on it, doesn't it?   It would all be in fun.  You wouldn't have a chance, though.   Would she, Frankie?

I do know one thing - there are parts of The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life that are just plain silly!

DebK

[SonOfWillieThePimp]

Hey Frankie!
Everything fine wherever you are? I hope so.
I was looking at a discussion in an e-mails group devoted to you, and somebody mentioned that Apostrophe was a "commercial" album. I don't think so!! Although i have that edition with Overnight Sensation, so i see both as a whole, i don't think it's a commercial album.
I'm not really sure why people consider something commercial in a bad sense, like if it was made just to be sold, no matter quality. Would you agree about Apostrophe being a commercial album? Your thoughts?

PS: i'll fight in the mud if necessary! Apostrophe is not a commercial album!!!  

There's no such thing as a commercial Zappa album.

[Barry]

There's no such thing as a commercial Zappa album.

I would think there is.

But let's define "commercial" first, shall we? A "commercial" album need not necessarily be one that turns out to be commercially successful on a massive scale. What is important here is the intention with which the album was released.

I am quite sure that each and every Zappa release was put out there in order to make money. Nothing wrong with that, and something Zappa The Pragmatic saw as a necessity from the very start.

Now let's go one step further. I think Zappa had a very good feel for his audience. An audience which, to the mainstream record companies, had "no commercial potential". Heh, how ignorant they were. In a way Zappa found a hole in this "non commercial" part of the market. You're part of it. You buy his records, right? My point.

In conclusion: what is wrong about being "commercial"? It's as if commercial and creative are perpetuous opposites. They don't need to be. Zappa is a prime example of this.

[womanfromutopia]

Hot damn WillieT didnt ya read anything the man just posted ? Hmph, anyway let me throw this out here allrighty?  Assure me only that even though the music was put out to turn a profit and yeah some of the recorings may not have been as tirelessly poured over as some, tell me it wasnt just a job. When a person makes a piece of something and sells it and other people enjoy it its a win/win situation, but I refuse to accept that FZ's music (and others but thats for an other thread) was just his 'product' so to speak!Boy hidee, Im having cognitive dissonance over this subject .
Oh yeah and Fuck some Jello-O wrastlin', hows about butterscotch puddin?Hee-hee

[Lonesome Cowboy Squirt]

hows about butterscotch puddin?Hee-hee

Mmmmmmh......butterscotch is very tasty!

Frank Zappa never set out to be "commercial."  However, he did want as many people as possible to at least know his music exists.  It is important to understand that in order to have your record distributed widely enough to get to the audience who is interested in your type of entertainment, you must succumb to the whim of the BIG MONDO CORPORATE RECORD LABEL.  Labels have the proper distibution power.  Over time, record labels have become less and less tolerant.  One used to present a demo and the guy behind the desk might not understand the work presented, but would at least give it a shot.  This is how some careers came to be.  This task was much easier 30 years ago.

Nowadays, if you don't fit into a corporate-approved genre, or if you aren't a part of the "club", you don't stand a chance.  According to these guys, it's much cheaper to find new "talent," let them record one or two albums, then pitch 'em before they get too boring.  Naturally, these records are boring because they've been tweezed to death by businessmen who have no musical talent or expertise themselves.  They have a nose for what sells, and THAT is the only determining factor, unfortunately.  It's not cost effective to invest in talented "career types".

Recently, a new hope for unsigned musicians has appeared over the horizon:  the internet.  You can get your songs out to virtually everyone with access to the net.  Naturally, this has the labels and bands already signed to labels piddling in their pants.  All of a sudden, there is no more control over who gets what when and for how much.  It will take some time and a lot of lawsuits until this little predicament is sorted out.  I predict there will be more emphasis on live concerts and merchandising.  Only time will tell...